1) Considering Hemsky didn't have the puck, that's pretty blatant. I'd say it's worth a 1-2 game suspension.

2) If the NHL doesn't do something, I want to see someone run Tanguay or Huselius through the glass first opportunity next Saturday. That's how you neutrailze goofs like Regehr and Phaneuf from running at Hemsky....an eye for an eye.
 

If Ales Hemsky were playing for a high-profile team, Regehr would get fifteen games or something insane like that. Unfortunately, he's an Oiler, so Regehr will get off entirely scot-free. Wheel O' Justice, awaaay!
 

If Ales Hemsky were playing for a high-profile team, Regehr would get fifteen games or something insane like that.

True. Where's the moral outrage from Bob McKenzie?
 

Surprised to see HBomb chiming in here without also being outraged at Staios. I thought sticking your leg out was just as dangerous in your books, HBomb?

This is why I can't debate these things; because virtually no one approaches it from a principled position. And on top of that, the NHL does not care. They quite clearly are not concerned about head shots in and of themselves.
 

This is why I can't debate these things; because virtually no one approaches it from a principled position.

You didn't have a problem debating the Torres hit. Now that it involves a Flame, you don't want to talk about it? Just look at the replay, replace Regehr with Souray and Hemsky with Tanguay, and answer the question: should a play like that go unpunished?
 

Clearly that was a dirty play, and a suspension is warranted. 10 games would be appropriate. As much as anything, there's the fact Regehr nailed Hemsky after positioning him face to the glass. Dangerous play.

BTW, it wasn't a "head shot" Matt. It was a cross check to the neck, launching a player head first into the end boards (directly at the dasher). At no time is a cross check to the neck tolerated or within the rules. That's in obvious contrast to body checks. Suspensions in those cases have to look at how and why the hit went over the line. Here? Cross check to the back of the head, launching the opposition's most skilled player head first into the dasher. Not even close to within the rules.

Whether other plays happened in the game is not the question at hand. Otherwise we'd also bring up the Phaneuf elbow on Nilsson (from the 1st?) and Regehr's late hit on Hemsky from the second period. The Brazilian Waxing was clearly dangerous and easily could have ended Hemsky's season. Anything less than a 5 game suspension is a joke.
 

I don't see that I was debating Torres' hit so much as looking at it based on the NHL's own stated criteria, but whatever. What I do notice reading those October posts is how much my assumptions (or, premises) have changed.

At that time, I was assuming that the NHL meant it when they said they wanted to cut down on head shots. I no longer believe that in the slightest.

They're doing a nice job punishing the rather small subset of headshots that are "totally gratuitous headshots committed with obvious malice aforethought". The rest they have good excuses for.

Until they're sure they want to deter the kind of hits laid by Regehr, Cooke, and Jones (among others) lately, there is very little chance that they will be punishing them very severely.

Based on comparables *from this year only*, Regehr won't be getting suspended at all. Like it or lump it, lads. I don't know what else to tell you. If that's not good enough, maybe this will ring a bell:

My two things are: 1) My basic sense of fairness tells me that when one player injures another in an act that's not otherwise within the rules, he should have to pay a price, and 2) I'd like to be able to understand how supplementary discipline is determined, even if I don't agree with the specific judgement on which that determination is made.

I've given up on (2). And, on (1). Less than 5 games will be a joke, Rod? Get ready to laugh, then.
 

Until they're sure they want to deter the kind of hits laid by Regehr

Hit laid by Regehr? What hit? Is a crosscheck to the back of the neck a hit now? Is a driving of the head into the boards with hands and stick a hit now?

And you still haven't answered my question. Quit hiding behind what the league will or will not do. Should a play like that go unpunished?
 

Matt: I didn't see the Staios incident. If indeed he did something similar to what Hale did to Hemsky, he should have been assessed a penalty. Kneeing incidents need to be pretty blatant to warrant a suspension, and I haven't seen what Staios did in any hilight packages, so it was probably something comparable to what Hale did....right? Which would justify a comparable penalty, correct?

Hemsky did not have the puck and Regehr cross-checked him in the neck to ride him into the boards. That's in the area of a head-shot and will probably get reviewed and possibly result in a short suspension.

You've brought up the Torres hit as a precedent, which is interesting....considering I didn't see the Torres hit on the 20th of last month (rare occasion that I missed an Oiler game on TV), I have no clue how "questionable" it was.

The bottom line is that the NHL SHOULD be taking a stand on these sorts of plays, right?
 

As Andy noted, nice attempted deflection Matt. We're not fooled though. As for laughing, perhaps...but only if f4f has actually been spewing on his keyboard (reference the other comment thread).

Bottom line, be prepared for #28 sightings in the press box for the next 5 to 10 games.
 

I don't see that I was debating Torres' hit so much as looking at it based on the NHL's own stated criteria, but whatever.

The distinction I see between the Torres hit and this, aside from the obvious "one was a bodycheck, the other's a crosscheck" lies in where it happened. Open ice headshots just do not raise as much concern for me. The NHL is fine with hitting a guy in the head, it's permissible by the rules...I don't think that they should, but whatever.

The hit on Hemsky...I mean, Christ. That's the kind of play that guys end up in a wheelchair from. Is that what the NHL needs? Cosh says that everyone sounds like a personal injury lawyer here but there's going to be a career ending and life altering play in that area at some point. Regehr's play doesn't just raise the spectre of concussions - it raises the possibility of a broken neck. There ought to be some supplementary discipline or, if the rules don't allow for it, they should change the rules.
 

Exactly right on every point mc79.
 

Watching the game on Saturday and seeing that hit on hemsky by regehr, i thought; if thats not a 5 minute major, what is?

-doug
 

Was just over at the hf boards and the flame fans are talking about how the torres hit on moss is even worse. Wow are some of these guys retarted. Not even in the same ballpark. Torres even lifts his leg to not knee moss and people think its the same thing?
I dont get it.

-doug
 

Matt said...
I don't see that I was debating Torres' hit so much as looking at it based on the NHL's own stated criteria, but whatever.

So why exactly don't you do that here?

Admittedly that's a pointless exercise because there's a lot less gray area in the rules regarding crosschecking.

I certainly share your cynicism regarding the NHL head office and discipline. I don't expect them to handle this one properly.
 

As sickening and dangerous as Regehr's assault on Hemsky was, I share Matt's skepticism that the NHL will take real action here, as this is the kind of thing that is written off as a bang-bang play.

But it shouldn't be written off.

The Journal's John Mackinnon also posts about the hit today, laying out what will be Regehr's defence for this incident, the unconvincing notion that this was simply "a battle for the puck that went bad," warranting a five minute major and a game misconduct only.

Now, there's no doubt this was a split-second decision, -- just like most every hockey play at the NHL level -- but there was a decision here, intent on Regehr's part, exemplified by his raising and using his stick as a weapon.

Simply because the decision happened fast doesn't mean it didn't happen. NHL players are used to making this kind of judgment in a hurry.

Regehr is culpable.

As for Colby's comment that we all sound like lawyers here, well, sometimes the language of the criminal court is the only thing that can break through the foggy-thinking and easy acceptance that the NHL has for this kind of incident.
 

On a somewhat related tangent, when are the Flames and other teams getting rid of the seamless glass? Hemsky was launched into the dasher so the type of glass didn't make a difference there. For Langkow though, I have no doubt seamless glass was a contributing factor to his injury.
 

What's amazing.. is that no media has picked up on this, yet we saw replay after replay of the Torres hit.

I figured, at the very least, Mirtle would chime in on this.

Just disgusting that because of who Hemsky plays for, and the fact he somehow got up from that, Regehr gets off.

If the NHL wasn't run by idiots, Regehr gets five games, minimum.

But the NHL is run by idiots, so the Oilers are left with two choices:

#1) Hemsky turns around next time and feeds Regehr his stick, and Regehr eats out of a straw for 8 weeks. Couldn't think of a nicer guy for it to happen to.

#2) Tanguay gets a very similar ride next game, and the Flames can whine about all they want if he can't get up, and have nobody to blame except for Colin Campbell (who has clearly stated that this kind of hit is legal, after all) and Robyn Regehr.
 

pdo: I do not ordinarily advocate vengence but if you are going to do it pick your target and plan it out so it is the most effective and damaging.

Save it for Iginla and make sure it is a triple team. The first guy runs him into the boards 5 seconds after he drops the puck (reghr hit #1)and the second guy follows with a full tilt cross check to the back of the head planting him into the boards (reghr hit #2). Finally after the medical staff helps him the third guy comes by with a good elbow shiver (phanuef elbow) to his head to make sure the concussion is for extended period of time.

Barbaric but effective.

If there are no suspension for saturdays game there will be none for these.

Now for the reality:
1. There will be no suspensions.
2. MacT said post game we are in no position to take vengence.

When we are healthy would be nice.
April 1, 2008 would be perfect.
 

This comment has been removed by the author.
 

In order:

1) Andy: sorry, but that's not a Yes/No question (unless you think the 2-minute minor counts as Yes, and I get the impression that you don't). What you're actually asking is *how seriously* should it be punished.

The answer is: in accordance with the same criteria they use for the rest of them; they shouldn't make an example of him.

2) Rod, you're an excellent commenter here, but right now you're kidding yourself.

3) Tyler, among others: "if the rules don't allow for it, they should change the rules" -- I have no problem with this, although it is not my crusade. Especially since the people who should care the most -- the players, and their coaches etc. -- don't seem to. Most NHLers look at the possibility that someone might break their neck on the boards like global warming: sure it's possible, but it's not going to change the way I operate one iota.

4) RQ, because (a) Staples did himself, and (b) I don't take it at face value any more. I haven't heard mention of that list by Colin Campbell since the day Steve Downie was suspended, and a LOT of people have been hit in the head.

5) Staples, see 1) and 3)

6) PDO/rickibear: why not suggest punching him in the back of the head, then falling on him? Too subtle?

Hemsky was not hurt, and for that I'm glad. If he had been, I'd probably have a different tone of voice. If you think the NHL should be doing more to make the game safer and discourage potentially dangerous hits/plays, write a letter to Gary Bettman.
 

Hemsky was not hurt, and for that I'm glad. If he had been, I'd probably have a different tone of voice.

Do you think that that should matter? I mean, once Regehr cheapshots him into the boards, at that point it's in the hands of God and the Hemsky family genes relating to the ability to withstand blows to the head?

Flip it around and say that Regehr crushes him with a clean hit and breaks his neck. Will you then be saying "Well it was a clean hit, but Ales got hurt so there has to be punishment." I just can't see how the result is all that relevant, since it turns on things outside Regehr's control.

I don't know that you're right anymore about players and coaches not caring about this stuff either. There's been a lot of talk about the lack of respect in the game of late, and that hit is a symptom of a larger problem.
 

1) Andy: sorry, but that's not a Yes/No question (unless you think the 2-minute minor counts as Yes, and I get the impression that you don't). What you're actually asking is *how seriously* should it be punished.

It actually is a Yes/No question. I say yes, he should receive punishment beyond what was assigned in the game. You say nothing, because it suits you. If Iginla had been on the receiving end, you'd be all over this.
 

Matt: Have you participated at any physical sport at a national or international level. Whether he was injured or not is irrelivent. When you compete at that level and you are targeted you target back.

Matt i truly enjoy your point of view and blog site.

The intention of writing the Jerome senerio farce is to see if any flames fans would respond to it. Matt you have. By indicating your disdain for such suggestions you are saying that regher and phanuefs actions should recieve the same disdain.

THerefore there is no way you can defend the actions of calgary's defenceman. To do so now would be hipocritical.
 

Tyler, I do think the consequences of people's actions should matter.

And yes, there has been lots of talk. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
 

I see on the Sportsnet ticker that the NFL has told its refs to immediately crack down on players who initiate headshots.
The NHL, only having the 'nards to suspend rookies and AHLers, have failed to adequately punish hacks of varying ability who have injured and/or hospitalized stars Bergeron, Gagne, Langkow, et al.
One league is the most successful sports league in the history of the world.
The other is a garage league.
 

I figured, at the very least, Mirtle would chime in on this.

I was watching the game, and thought it was well-covered here.

If I'm going to be pointing to every single one of these, I'll be a busy guy...
 

If I'm going to be pointing to every single one of these, I'll be a busy guy...

Plus, it didn't happen on the east coast. Let's be honest here. It didn't happen in prime time in Toronto, and the league doesn't want any bad news during the Hall of Fame ceremonies, so it will mostly be ignored.
 

mc79hockey said:
I just can't see how the result is all that relevant, since it turns on things outside Regehr's control.
Tyler nailed it again. The act is what's at issue. Which is why Jones didn't get nearly as big a suspension as the other Flyers.

Matt said:
Tyler, I do think the consequences of people's actions should matter.
Huh? I always thought it was consequences for actions. Results should have a bearing to some degree, but there's consequences for actions. The issue is the act, which is why Boulderice got 25 even though Kesler was largely OK. Unless you're saying the Boulderice suspension was light, supplementary discipline does *not* require a substantial injury. Nice try Matt.

You may think I'm kidding myself here Matt, but note that I've correctly estimated the Flyer suspensions. Also figured that Torres wouldn't be suspended. Or the Canuck that pasted M.Roy in the pre-season. OK, for Downie I was merely hoping they'd suspend for 20...but they did. Jones--while a devastating hit--wasn't in the same category of being over the line. Yes it caused a terrible injury, but that alone is not the standard (as already covered for Boulderice). I figured it would be 2 or 3 games (commented on Mirtle's site about both hits).

BTW, I saw some of the Bruins/Flyers game on NESN, so I wasn't merely parroting prevailing opinion. My initial reaction upon hearing of the hit was that it was Flyers modus operandi. That something had to be done. Then I saw the replay on NESN multiple times, and I realized the hit wasn't as bad as others this season:
- Bergeron was completely aware Jones was there
- Jones had turned his head to follow the puck, and possibly didn't even realize Bergeron had ducked low, face to the glass
- Jones didn't jump, no flying elbow to the head, not much beyond a regular body check.
It was a hit that shouldn't have been levelled though, considering the face to the glass situation. As a result, he was suspended.


Let's compare that to Regehr:
- Hemsky knew Regehr was there--they were involved in a race for the puck
- Regehr was looking right at Hemsky the whole time, so we wasn't unware of the face to the glass situation
- nor could Regehr have been surprised, as it was partially through Regehr's actions that Hemsky body position was face first, head lowered to the boards
- Regehr proceeded to cross-check Hemsky in the neck, ensuring his head was directed squarely at the dasher.
Call me crazy--or that I'm kidding myself--but that's waaaay over the line for a regular body check. Based on the action involved in that play, Regehr deserves a suspension. Somewhere in the range of 5 to 10 games--particularly when the late, as in late by a mile, 2nd period hit is taken into account.

Another factor is that Regehr wasn't really penalized for his acts during the game in question. Late hit in the second was unpenalized. Then, a two minute minor for a cross-check that clearly deserved a major (and therefore a game misconduct). Supplemental discipline is more than warranted.

Hemsky got up on the play, but we're only assuming he's OK. We'll really find out next game. Given Hemsky's apparently healthy situation, Regehr may escape with a less than 10 games.

Time will tell.

As for the lack of attention, I agree with Andy. The league is trying to keep a lid on these hits, particularly around the Hall-of-Fame weekend. It's the best group of four to ever get inducted at once, don't you know. We don't want any bad publicity around a celebration like this...

Hopefully the media wakes up to realize the seriousness of the play to help ensure it receives the proper attention before the Flames play again Tuesday. Even though it happened outside the Eastern time zone. Hemsky deserves nothing less. His playing career was perilously close to ending Saturday night.
 

It's a bad hit, clearly, but on the continuum of bad hits we've seen this year, you'd have to say it was not as bad as many of them. I'd be surprised if this turned into more than a 1 or 2 game suspension.

But then, I'm surprised by a lot of things. The Oilers winning on Saturday night, for example.

Go Flames.
 

Hemsky played that situation correctly- he got body position on Regehr and went after the puck. Regehr's crosscheck was dangerous and illegal, and will probably result in a 2/3 game suspension, if any.
As for those suggesting the Oilers cheap-shot Iginla/Tanguay/Huselius, how is that better than Bertuzzi breaking Steve Moore's neck? If anything it's worse because none of the aforementioned players had anything to do with Regehr's decision to try and injure Hemsky. It might make players think twice before taking liberties with Hemsky, but I sincerely doubt it's the kind of situation any reasonable person wants to see.
 

I must say, I find the Oiler fans reaction quite instructive. What a bunch of barbaric children. Seriously, it was a serious run into the boards for Hemsky, but your childish braying for 15 game suspensions and other goofball antics are ridiculous.

Hemsky and Regher were racing for the puck, and Hemsky got very minor position on Regher. What is Regher supposed to do? Just let Hemsky have it? No, he had to regain position, which he did and which is very much alowed under the NHL rules. Unfortunately, at the end of it, he pushed Hemsky off of him, and Hemsky flew into the boards, a dangerous result of a fair and just battle for position. What Regher did was deserving of a 2 minute minor (that is what cross checking is, right?). If the NHL was to give suspensions for every dangerous result of a play, there would not be many players out there.

And that is why it isn't all over the media, not because it was an Oiler that it happened to, but was the end result of a battle for the puck - which had a dangerous ending. Quit whining for victimhood.

As for comparisons to Torres hit on Moss, at least Regher and Hemsky were battlign for the puck. Torres just nailed Moss in the head, without the puck being a factor at all. So really, perhaps Torres hit was far more dangerous, as it was done with malicious intent. And before you Oiler fans start whining saying how Regher's hit was malicious, tell me how often you skate into the corners at full speed wrestling with an opposing player and have enough wits about to note the position of the puck, how you are wrestling with the opposing forward, where your teamates are, and what your next action is. And if you say you do it often, I'd say you are a liar or overstate your playing skills. Otherwise, you'd be in the NHL.

Yeah, a harsh post, but the Oiler fans here seem to be rather harsh on Matt.
 

If the NHL can't control cheapshots, players will, whether the previous poster approves of it or not. It is why Bertuzzi enjoyed such overwhelming support of Canucks fans. While his act was deserving of a lengthy suspension, everybody knows it was in retribution for the cheapshot Moore levelled at Naslund's head. Had that first elbow smash been punished by Chicken Soup Campbell, there would be been no Bertuzzi-Moore "incident."
 

Unfortunately, at the end of it, he pushed Hemsky off of him, and Hemsky flew into the boards, a dangerous result of a fair and just battle for position.

The Anonymouse Flames fan, ladies and gentlemen. We should all stop being so hard on Matt, because Regehr just pushed Hemsky off of him. If anything, it was self-defence. I mean, what was Hemsky doing with his neck against Regehr's stick!?
 

I see neither the Edmonton Sun nor the Edmonton Journal have squat about this today. I guess if it doesn't happen in the Eastern time zone, they just don't care. For shame.
 

Anonymous Falmes fan: Seriously, can you point to anyone seriously calling for a serious 15 games suspension? Anywhere in this thread? Seriously?

Your first paragraph was crap, and it didn't get any better as you attempted to justify a needless and dangerous cross-check as "pushing him off". What? Andy already nailed you on this point, but a cross-check is now a push? You yourself said it was a cross-check, so how is that merely a push? BTW, launching someone headfirst into the boards with a cross-check to the neck is more than a 2 minute minor. Unless of course Boulderice should only have received a 2 minute minor for his cross-check to to Kesler's face. By your reasoning, that's the penalty for a cross-check... Yeah, nice logic there Anonymous Falmes fan. Thanks for coming out.

Let's highlight another contradiction: you allege it's too tough to keep an eye on so many variables (the opposition player right in front your eyes, the puck...wow..that's a lot). Anyway, you then say if we could, we'd be in the NHL. Uh, isn't that the league where Regehr is playing? He's perfectly capable of wresting a smaller player without cross-checking him in the neck forcing his head straight into the dasher.

It easily could have been another Bergeron. On a far more malicious and reckless play than Jones.
 

Matt: OK, we'll spell it out again. Non-Eastern time zone was a factor. As is the HHoF weekend. Did you miss the fact Jones and Matheson are in Toronto. Not that those two would necessarily be leading a hue and cry over the hit. Point is, many eyes are directed elsewhere...and nobody wants to tarnish this weekend. Especially when two of the inductees are Stevens and Messier.

Sucks for Hemsky. He deserves better protection.
 

I see neither the Edmonton Sun nor the Edmonton Journal have squat about this today. I guess if it doesn't happen in the Eastern time zone, they just don't care. For shame.

That's funny. I could have sworn the David Staples link you referred to was from the Edmonton Journal. Huh. He must be stealing their design, logo, title and webpage address. Sinister guy, that Staples not writing for the Edmonton Journal.
 

i was at the Oct 20th game and was seated at the end of the rink where Torres hit Moss. If you saw the replay Torres was going after the puck carrier. Moss was doing one of two things, either trying to run a pick play or coming into the play late as a trailer. Most likely option 2 as he didn't see Torres. At the same time i think Torres saw Moss late and readied for the impact. He didn't go after his head or jump up or speed up etc. it was incidental contact which the ref didn't see but saw Torres flopping afterwards and assumed he tripped Moss. As for Regehr he was battling for the puck with Hemsky had three options. Let Hemsky take the puck and try to play tight D (would never happen), body Hemsky towards the boards and battle for the puck (should have done this), or hit him in some fashion so that Hemsky goes flying into the boards. The third option was the most dangerous of the 3 and he made it worse by cross checking. Now for all of you people that think there is no way a player can process multiple play options in a split second then you've never played competitive sports or you were never very good. And it wasn't a split second decision as Regehr had plenty of time to think of options and scenarios while they were chasing for the puck.
 

6) PDO/rickibear: why not suggest punching him in the back of the head, then falling on him? Too subtle?

Yeah, too subtle. Hemsky should just slow up next time, place his stick on the back of Regehr's head and drive him headfirst into the boards, right?

The best part of this is Flames fans comparing Torres not even seeing Moss to Regehr blatantly throwing Hemsky headfirst into the boards.

Der...
 

Andy: what day is today?

And are you frustrated because I'm wrong or because I'm right? Who are you mad at?
 

Had a big reply, but all I can point out is that I did say it was a cross-check, not just a push (you do push people with cross-checks, they aren't mutually exclusive - simple logic). The 15 games comment is in the second post on this thread (seriously, it is). In no way was this hit anywhere near similar to Boulderice's (highspeed battle for the puck is not even close to a standing toe-to-toe crosscheck to the face away from the puck). And dtam23's look at the options Regehr had is the best analysis I have seen in the whole thread. I disagree with your Torres hit analysis though - I think the hit was not incidental and Torres was trying to go through Moss. But that is Torres game. And you have made me think that Regehr's hit should be looked at. But I bet it was, and seeing as Regehr isn't known as a guy who puts guys out of the line up (like Torres), he won't get much if anything. And not because it was an Oiler that was hit.

Rod, you're just ranting man. I didn't contradict myself - I was pointing out the stimili present that could have distracted Regehr to making his cross-check play. I didn't say that NHLers are immune to that, but I did point out that to say they are you had better be a high-end athlete. I still think it was a split second decision (or lack of one - I bet Regehr acted on instinct to push his man out of the way), but even if it was, it shows the dangerous instincts the players have been trained with. And I would pit my logic against yours any day.

And Andy, I do like cheese, so I guess the Anonymouse is appropiate (I don't think for a second that "e" is a typing error).
 

Huh, I was ranting? OK, try this then:
- you stated the obvious: a cross-checking penalty is 2 minutes
- as well, you said What Regher did was deserving of a 2 minute minor (that is what cross checking is, right?).
- apparently you ignored the other factors at play (such as the fact it was a cross-check to the neck, driving Hemsky's head into the boards). Those factors made it more than a 2 minute minor. It was an obvious 5 minute major and game misconduct. That Regehr later scored a powerplay goal was ridiculous. He shouldn't have been in the game anymore.

The point of bringing up Boulderice was to give you an example of a someone getting more than 2 minutes for a "cross-check" (rightly so). Never equated the two incidents. Merely pointed out that your reasoning of a cross-checking call that ignores the other factors of the hit is a severely flawed statement.

BTW, did you notice that Regehr wasn't even tagged with a cross-checking penalty? Check the game sheet. Kind of makes your position of "cross-checking == 2 minutes" a joke.

I wasn't the only one calling into your question of too much stimuli for Regehr to make a decision:
dtam23:Now for all of you people that think there is no way a player can process multiple play options in a split second then you've never played competitive sports or you were never very good. And it wasn't a split second decision as Regehr had plenty of time to think of options and scenarios while they were chasing for the puck.

Yet when I do it, it's just a rant. Whatever. I stand by my statement: Regehr is perfectly capable of wresting a smaller player without cross-checking him in the neck forcing his head straight into the dasher.