Tuesday, April 18, 2006


Give Iggy the Goods

Cosh has convinced me. Iggy deserves it.

MATT-UPDATE: The highlight of the piece, for me, is awarding Kipper the Sergei Zubov Trophy For Being The Player I'd Most Like to Kill With My Bare Hands. Pretty awesome, when juxtaposed with this, from the discussion of Great Terrors back in February:
I feel like Hasek and Roy are too temperamental to qualify. Strangely enough, I can't name a goaltender who quite meets my emotional criteria...

SOMEbody has watched a few more Flames games, and rethought things...


I think Iginla deserves the Byng as much as Pronger deserves the Norris...

>So seeing Cosh ridicule Iggy's earned salary while cheering for a team that pays Peca $4 million is quite bizarre

We're still flogging this dead horse? At this point, there's, like $20,000 left on Peca's salary and unlike Iginla we owe him nothing after this season.

What could be more bizarre than paying a guy for goals he scored four years ago? Hell, if we're paying for the same vintage of Mike Peca, we got a huge discount.

As far as Chara goes, his Norris candidacy seems to have gone astray in the second half, and then he missed close to three weeks with the hand injury. I felt like Redden was actually the better player after about the first 20 games, and he has the stats to prove it, but he missed time too, and he only averaged 18 minutes when he was on the roster, which is like two-thirds of the time Pronger put in trying to keep the puck away from Conky.

Dammit! Looked at the wrong stats again. Redden's ATOI was 23½, which is still well outside Pronger's neighbourhood of 28.

I actually think Pronger does a little better on the "all-around" criterion than on the "most valuable" criterion. If you're looking for the guy with no weaknesses in his game you end up at Pronger; he's fairly close to the top offensively at the position, he's easily the toughest guy who's near the top, and he's still the best technical player amongst the tough guys. I'm less comfortable arguing that he really creates more "value" than a Zubov, although I personally would snag him ahead of Zubov when building a team.

Actually, they're paid to chuck the Stanley Cup in the Bow River after going up 3-2 in the finals. You heard it here first.

I did notice that the monkeys have commenced flinging their own feces over at CalgaryPuck.com. Apparently they took it badly that I... um, supported their goalie for the Hart Trophy? How does this work?

Fuck me, that is funny. Go get em Tyler!

Man, you predict players from Calgary walk away with three trophies and suddenly you have the Flamers fans upset with you. Obviously they were looking for Phaneuf to be rookie of the year, and win the Norris, Sutter to win the Jack Adams and a nameless Flames player with about 8 goals to win the Selke.

I'm sure in their minds every one of those trophies is being won, just like they think they won the Stanely Cup.

My favorite is the guy who took the time to start the thread--and so poetically let me say--and then also took the time to create the "Moldy Mosh" facsimile.

I have never bothered to spend any time on either that board or the Oiler board. I think I will spend ALL my time there in the future. Fan-tas-tic.

My favourite item is the "server fund" donation thermometer at the top right of the forum page. Apparently these guys didn't notice the large number of eye-spraining ads on the site and actually contributed $2,400 to a commercial enterprise. It's as if Safeway set up a "buy us new cash registers" fund for its customers.

Jhuck is spitting-cotton mad tonight.

Pre-first round jitters are normal and understandable: I suggest baking a cake or muffins to make yourself feel better.

jhuck, the point is, who would you rather give 7 million to? Jarome or the Kipper?

I think it's your goalie. The whole arguement of Jarome not having a Thornton playing beside him is just plain stupid because Torres doesn't have that either.

We have Mike Friggin Peca for crying out loud.

"Scoring 50 EVERY year is wonderful, but what good does it do if you don't win games."

Uhhh, exactly?

2001-2002 Jarome Iginla: 52 goals, 25.8% of team scoring
2001-2002 Calgary Flames Record: 32-35-12

2003-2004 Calgary Flames without Kiprusoff in net: 18-23-3
2003-2004 Calgary Flames with Kiprusoff in net: 24-10-3

So, who is worth 7 mil because he "helps get you 46 wins and a division title."

I know the whole Kipper thing has been beaten to death, but I think Cosh and MC's overall points are that Iginla is not worth 7 mil because: A)He's not scoring well even relative to his own past performances, and B)he's not the reason that Calgary is #1 in the NW.
And quite frankly, no matter how much you screech derisively at them, your argument cannot refute those points.

Apparantly Jim Kelly has picked up my Wild/Flames comparison from a month or so ago.


On the other hand, if the Flames fans are dead set on Iginla having the money, and they don't mind the salary-cap implications, more power to 'em. But I would love to go back in time to tell these jags at the start of the year how the season panned out. "So, Iggy was healthy all year, how many points did he get? I'm sure he broke through 100 easily with the improved lineup, right?

"No? Well, he must have gotten 90, yeah?

"Jesus. Tell me he got 80. He must have cleared 80.

"Are you kidding me? ARE YOU JOKING WITH ME. I can't believe he only broke 70...

"...he didn't break 70? LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! NOT LISTENING!"

The reasoning after the fact (cf.: JHuck) is that the team won so Iggy must have been great. Easy thing to tell yourself before the Stanley Cup tournament starts, even if you have been downgraded from "overall league favourite" to "in tough against a charging Anaheim team." The team may even justify the willful blindness, who knows?

Anahiem is actually an interesting team to watch in the playoffs this year. Ginguere has shown in the past that he's capable of carrying a team almost all the way to a cup. While Seleane is having the best year I can recall him having since the Finnish Flash donned a Winnipeg Jets jersey. Throw MacDonald, Getszlaf and a few other players into the mix and with their play down the stretch, you could see that team making some noise.

No, you don't boo them off the ice. You just stop showing up to games.

And the Red Mile has way fewer drunken sluts flashing their breasts at random passers-by.

Cosh, where did this come from?

Statistically, the Oilers had the league's number-one defence this year; they allowed fewer than three goals per game, despite having Bozo the Clown in net for most of the year.

Looking at GA/G, EDM is 2.95 and that ranks 12th. Which stat do you use to get "the leagues number-one defense"?

>You guys seem to be the only people who can't grasp the fact that the amount of goals a player scores doesn't automatically signify his valaue.

And what of it? I've seen plenty of games this year where I barely even noticed "Jarmoe" as a factor in the game. Meanwhile in Washington, Alexander Ovechkin always looks dangerous playing for nothing with Chris Clark as a linemate.

He's still a keeper, but not worth the league maximum of $7 million. Nor is that bum Peca worth $4 million, let alone $1 million.

The concept is that Edmonton has the league's number-one defence if you correct for the save percentage of its goalies--statistically, that is, the best defencemen. They allowed just 25.5 shots per game for the season, which was the best figure in the league. Only Detroit and San Jose were remotely close.

Even nonstatistically, I think you could find a lot of people outside Alberta who would say that the Oilers have the best, or nearly the best, top six right now. Who else has a player of Steve Staios's quality in the #5 slot?

Does the number of shots matter, or is it the quality of shots?

I think that depends upon the goalie, and especially the rebound control of the goalie/defense.

But I don't know if there is any quantifiable 'stat' to measure this.

Does anyone recall years ago there was a web applet that would show the rink and mark where shots were taken from, a different mark if it scored?

I wonder if anything like that exists where you could determine the distance & angle of shots? It won't account for screens, and I'm not sure how to record tips/deflections, but it would be interesting.

I give you a wonderful example, Cheechoo, who was on pace for 23 goals until Thornton showed up to give him the scoring title, yet you refuse to believe that this type of help doesn't apply to Iggy.

jhuck, I think the point is that Cheechoo earns nothing close to what Iginla earns. Cheechoo may need some help to score all those goals, but the fact that he's only earning $760,000 right now means SJ can easily afford to bring in a guy like Thorton to set him up.
Sure, Cheechoo will be earning a hell of alot more money in a few years, but if it's $7million/year, and he's not leading the league in scoring or points, or right up there at least, people are gonna call him overpaid and underperforming.

Which is exactly what this argument about Iginla is.

God, would you just give Iginla a raise already? The guy does so much intangibly how can you possibly expect to keep him at a paltry $7 MM / year in the face of a rising salary cap?

Jesus, the guy's going to be bolting for Russia soon if we keep lowballing him.

I think the Flames' defensive play must stem from the Calgary fans' defensive argument style. Stingy indeed. Talk about Iginla, suddenly they are attacking Smyth. Talk about goals, and they are talking about leadership. Talk about defensive style, and they talk about division titles. Talk about salary vs. results, and they tell us that we cannot possibly look at current results against a salary earned over the past three years.

We get it already, Calgary. You're always right. Thank goodness you keep reminding us, though.

Jhuck said the following
By your reasoning, Smyth is an overpaid bum for the simple fact that he only has 15 ev strength goals compared to Torres' 21. Right? In fact Smyth is only 4th in Oiler scoring. He Even has less points than Iggy. He truly is a panty waste. Of course, you would then argue that Smyth has other tangibles that make him good. But not Iggy."

as per NHL.com

Ryan Smyth GP 75 Goals 36 assists 30 points 66 Salary 3.5 million

Jerome Iginla GP 82 goals 35 assits 32 points 67 Salary 7 million

Look whose 17th in scoring and whose in 18th. Jerome the goal scoring machine is being outscored by the 'panty waist' Ryan Smyth, and Jerome has all those 'intangibles' which amount to one extra point. Looks like a 3.5 million dollar point, but to be fair Smyth probably deserves a raise after a good season, so Ignala is probably only over paid by about 2 million dollars.

The statistical side of things is mudcrutch's gig, but I think most of us can do a little bit of math. You know, 36 goals being better than 35.

I agree that Iginla was overpaid this year, that doesn't mean he necessarily will be next year. In any case, when the contract was signed I don't think it was a bad deal, and it's balanced with Kipper's underpaid status (assuming they keep both for the next 2 years until they are UFA's.

And if this summer they decide they want to move Iginla and go in another direction (which they won't) they'd still get good value for him because guaranteed there's gonna be a couple teams that think this year is an anomoly (which it may or may not be)

Wow, your diagnosis of Canada's problem in Turin is awfully acute, Dr. Hockey. What the rest of the universe remembers from Turin is that Team Canada got shut out in 11 of its last 12 periods. But clearly, as you say, the blame for that has to go to the slow blueline play of [an injured] Chris Pronger, rather than to "elite goal-scorers" like Jarmoe.

Get along, kids. You are staring to sound like the lunatics on that other board.

"I agree. Mud needs to take a breather. I was having fun , but I think he's beginning to pop some blood vessles."

I think it's laughable for you to think that you're somehow being the bigger man here. The only constant in this thread has been your frothing at the mouth, instigated by the great injustice of us poking fun at a player who maybe didn't earn all 7 mil of his salary this year.

As I might also note, you're the only one who also seems to be bringing over the aforementioned antagonism to another newer thread.

Laughable indeed.

I'm not mad. I was actually trying to tell you that the only one coming off as taking this all too personally is you. But, whatever, feel free to continue.

Oh what the hell, just so you know, when I say you're being antagonistic, it's just a nice way of saying you're being a bitch. And just so there is absolutely no way you can be confused again in the future...

an·tag·o·nism - actively expressed opposition or hostility

Please note that there is no implication of subject, thanks.

My knowledge of Matt, Sac, Cosh, Tyler and jhuck, limited as it is to being dorks online, is that they all pretty much have the same sense of humour as me: dry and biting. I think this whole thing has been hilarious. Not at all unfunny, like Cosh nominating Iginla for the Byng. That was really unfunny; apparently it was racial genocide jokes unfunny.

"Would that qualify as being antagonistic? "

Sure would. I'm quite glad this whole thread happened actually, at least no one can call BoA a circle jerk now (arguably).

Wow. That was fun.

I'd just like to add to the thread that, as a fan of the Flames and a regular attendee at the Saddledome, it is my opinion that while Iginla might be overpaid at $7 million, there is not a single forward in the league I would trade up for him. The same goes for Kiprusoff in exchange for any other single goaltender straight up.

Therefore, according to the economics of the NHL, if Iginla makes the league maximum, then that is money well spent. You would be hard-pressed to find any Flames fan to say different.

Kudos to Cosh, mudcrutch79 and my big brother for the energetic commentary.


Now if Cosh would just unclench his fists and jaw maybe we could all get together, strip down to our bras and panties and have a tickle fight in which we end up giggling on the floor in a group hug.

What is it with Calgarians wanting to strip the moment the playoffs arrive?

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