Tuesday, April 18, 2006

 

Give Iggy the Goods

Cosh has convinced me. Iggy deserves it.

MATT-UPDATE: The highlight of the piece, for me, is awarding Kipper the Sergei Zubov Trophy For Being The Player I'd Most Like to Kill With My Bare Hands. Pretty awesome, when juxtaposed with this, from the discussion of Great Terrors back in February:
I feel like Hasek and Roy are too temperamental to qualify. Strangely enough, I can't name a goaltender who quite meets my emotional criteria...

SOMEbody has watched a few more Flames games, and rethought things...

Comments:

I think Iginla deserves the Byng as much as Pronger deserves the Norris...
 


Prong's is pretty good, but Chara is better. So is Lidstrom, who doesn't have to hit to still be a stud.

Fun fact - Pronger has never beaten the Red Wings in the playoffs.
 


As for Iginla, he's a goal scorer. Nobody has scored more goals than him in the last 4 seasons, with 163 (Jagr had 152, Naslund=155, Hossa=151, Kovalchuk=153). Two of those seasons he led the league in goals.

So seeing Cosh ridicule Iggy's earned salary while cheering for a team that pays Peca $4 million is quite bizarre.
 


>So seeing Cosh ridicule Iggy's earned salary while cheering for a team that pays Peca $4 million is quite bizarre

We're still flogging this dead horse? At this point, there's, like $20,000 left on Peca's salary and unlike Iginla we owe him nothing after this season.
 


What could be more bizarre than paying a guy for goals he scored four years ago? Hell, if we're paying for the same vintage of Mike Peca, we got a huge discount.

As far as Chara goes, his Norris candidacy seems to have gone astray in the second half, and then he missed close to three weeks with the hand injury. I felt like Redden was actually the better player after about the first 20 games, and he has the stats to prove it, but he missed time too, and he only averaged 18 minutes when he was on the roster, which is like two-thirds of the time Pronger put in trying to keep the puck away from Conky.
 


Dammit! Looked at the wrong stats again. Redden's ATOI was 23½, which is still well outside Pronger's neighbourhood of 28.
 


You're a veteran of BTF Cosh, so I'm sure that you're aware of the definitional fights surrounding awards that they have in baseball. The Norris Trophy is defined as "...an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position."

It strikes me that there's nothing about ice time in there-it's a best all-round kind of thing. I like Prongs but I can't see him winning it, although I'm very open to the argument that no defenceman has been more valuable to his team this season.

As Iginla...Iggy scored 8 more goals than Raffi F. Torres this year. Sure, he blew him away in the all important "Not having a landing strip on your face" category but my god. Iggy scored one ES goal for every 64.9 minutes of ES time he played; Torres scored one every 41.4 minutes of ES time. Now there's obviously a vast gap between the two-Torres is worse than useless defensively, doesn't bring enough to the PP, looks ridiculous (this can't be emphasized enough) and doesn't create much for his teammates but when your defence of Iggy is that he's a goal scorer and he can't outscore a guy like Torres at ES (and he's not THAT much better than Torres on the PP, despite Torres playing with the Oilers second tier crew while Iggy gets the Flames "best" PP players), you've gotta wonder.

$7MM for a goal scorer who finished tied for 18th in the league? Good thing your GM lucked into a great goalie cheap.
 


"What could be more bizarre than paying a guy for goals he scored four years ago?"

Are you suggesting that other players in the NHL get salary increases BEFORE they perform well? Because you can't possibly be suggesting that the best goal scorer in the last half decade who won two scoring championships in the last 4 seasons is getting paid too much for his accomplishments. That would sound ridiculous.
 


Man, I'd love to see you guys determine player salaries, really I would...

"Yeah, you know what? You haven't won a scoring title since last season, so I don't think we can justify paying you what you want. No, no, it doesn't matter that we have a contract, we're just going to ignore it. Maybe you could try your luck in Edmonton. I hear they're looking for a fifth back-up goalie."
 


Because you can't possibly be suggesting that the best goal scorer in the last half decade who won two scoring championships in the last 4 seasons is getting paid too much for his accomplishments.

Why aren't the Oilers paying Wayne Gretzky $20MM annually to play for them right now? Because he what he did in the past has no relevance to winning hockey games now and paying him for that would be stupid.

It really does mystify me that can bash the Peca contract on one hand because he sucks this year and then revel in the Iginla contract because he used to not suck.
 


"Good thing your GM lucked into a great goalie cheap."

Just because your manager is a complete idiot when scoping the league for tenders (the most important position in the game)...
 


"Why aren't the Oilers paying Wayne Gretzky $20MM annually to play for them right now?"

Uh, maybe because Edmonton likes to trade away players of that caliber.

But if Wayne did win the scoring title last season, he would be paid 7 million this year. That's how things work in universes such as this one.
 


Just because your manager is a complete idiot when scoping the league for tenders (the most important position in the game)...

Yeah your guy has a pretty good resume that doesn't indicate that he got lucky once upon a time. How're Sauve and Boucher working out?
 


But if Wayne did win the scoring title last season, he would be paid 7 million this year. That's how things work in universes such as this one.

And if he then roared out to a 54th place finish in scoring this year, you know what we'd say? "He's overpaid and underperfoming."

Game, set, match.
 


I actually think Pronger does a little better on the "all-around" criterion than on the "most valuable" criterion. If you're looking for the guy with no weaknesses in his game you end up at Pronger; he's fairly close to the top offensively at the position, he's easily the toughest guy who's near the top, and he's still the best technical player amongst the tough guys. I'm less comfortable arguing that he really creates more "value" than a Zubov, although I personally would snag him ahead of Zubov when building a team.
 


So, taking into account every team begins the season as equals because of the salary cap, Calgary finishing first in the NW and Edmonton 8th in the West and making the playoffs only because the Canucks collapsed, the whole Oiler organization could be considered "overpaid and underperfoming", at least compared to Calgary, Colorado, Nashville, Anaheim, San Jose, Dallas, and Detroit. Right?

I would say game, set, match, but that sounds stupid.

Obviously Iggy is earning his keep if he leads his team to a division title. That's what team leaders are paid to do.
 


Actually, they're paid to chuck the Stanley Cup in the Bow River after going up 3-2 in the finals. You heard it here first.
 


So, taking into account every team begins the season as equals because of the salary cap, Calgary finishing first in the NW and Edmonton 8th in the West and making the playoffs only because the Canucks collapsed, the whole Oiler organization could be considered "overpaid and underperfoming", at least compared to Calgary, Colorado, Nashville, Anaheim, San Jose, Dallas, and Detroit. Right?

Unfortunately, it's more nuanced than that. I wouldn't object to the characterization of the Oilers as underperforming this year as a team but if I'm pointing the finger at individuals, it's going to be Mo, Conklin and Jussi. Toss Peca in if you want but he really was irrelevant. If 15 or 16 individuals earn their paycheque and their contribution is undercut by 3 or 4 guys, I'm hardpressed to smear the whole team. Just like I'd say that Iggy was well worth the money in 2001-02 even though his team was shit.

You seem to have an inability to separate the performance of the team from the performance of the individual. You're going to want to learn to do that or you end up thinking that paying Nikolai Khabibulin big bucks is a smart move.

Obviously Iggy is earning his keep if he leads his team to a division title. That's what team leaders are paid to do.

Wait...I thought he was a goal scorer. Too concrete a concept? We need something more abstract? I have a hard time seeing the relevance of the Flames performance as a team except insofar as Iggy contributed to it.

What if Sutter went nuts, signed me to a contract and then didn't play me all season long. The Flames win the division. Can I claim to have been worth the money because they won the division?
 


Cosh, if you check out CalPuck or any of your other finer Flames fan gather points, you'll find out that they won that Cup. It's just that no one outside of Calgary will acknowledge it.
 


I did notice that the monkeys have commenced flinging their own feces over at CalgaryPuck.com. Apparently they took it badly that I... um, supported their goalie for the Hart Trophy? How does this work?
 


Oh man am I all over that.
 


Fuck me, that is funny. Go get em Tyler!
 


Man, you predict players from Calgary walk away with three trophies and suddenly you have the Flamers fans upset with you. Obviously they were looking for Phaneuf to be rookie of the year, and win the Norris, Sutter to win the Jack Adams and a nameless Flames player with about 8 goals to win the Selke.

I'm sure in their minds every one of those trophies is being won, just like they think they won the Stanely Cup.
 


My favorite is the guy who took the time to start the thread--and so poetically let me say--and then also took the time to create the "Moldy Mosh" facsimile.

I have never bothered to spend any time on either that board or the Oiler board. I think I will spend ALL my time there in the future. Fan-tas-tic.
 


My favourite item is the "server fund" donation thermometer at the top right of the forum page. Apparently these guys didn't notice the large number of eye-spraining ads on the site and actually contributed $2,400 to a commercial enterprise. It's as if Safeway set up a "buy us new cash registers" fund for its customers.
 


"Unfortunately, it's more nuanced than that"

Oh really? You don't say. Well, then, glad to see you noticing a little thing called reality in the game of hockey.

Iggy has scored 16% of Calgary's goals this year. 16% of your team's goals is quite the accompishment, especially if it helps get you 46 wins and a division title. The only western playoff team to have someone score a larger % is San Jose. Cheechoo, who was on pace to score 22 in November, can thank Big Joe for that. Iggy doen't have a Big Joe setting him up. Nor does he have Forsberg, Sakic, Spezza & Alfie, Nylander & Straka etc etc. In fact, Iginla usually has to dump the puck in, dig it from the corner and pass it to HIMSELF in front before scoring. How's that for nuanced?

And let's not forget the fact that Calgary plays a checking and defencive game first and foremost, and they do well by it if you hadn't noticed. Pretty damned hard to be the league's top scorer EVERY year on a defensive club, wouldn't you say?

Is that nuanced enough for ya? No? How about the fact that Iginla is the ONLY Flames player other teams constantly shadow with their best checkers and d-men?
Should be enough nuances in there for you.

"Wait...I thought he was a goal scorer. Too concrete a concept?... I have a hard time seeing the relevance of the Flames performance as a team except insofar as Iggy contributed to it."

He's a goal scorer AND the team leader. And he leads the #1 NW team in goals, by a large margin. Too complicated for you to comprehend?

As for you finally realizing that Iggy contributes to the Flames winning (16% of their goals, 46 wins, Kipper has 0 goals, can't win without goals).... well d'uhhh.


Now really, you weren't actually suggesting that Torres is a better hockey player than Iggy, were you? If money wasn't an object you'd choose Torres? Not very "nuanced" thinking on your part. More like "concrete".

Ooooo, burn. Zing. Ouch. ROFL. PBUH. Match, set, game.
 


Iggy has scored 16% of Calgary's goals this year. 16% of your team's goals is quite the accompishment, especially if it helps get you 46 wins and a division title.

So you'd pay him more because the rest of the team is bad offensively? This doesn't particularly make a lot of sense. You keep repeating the 46 wins and division title as if it's some sort of magical talisman that somehow negates the fact that Iggy doesn't score like a $7MM man should. We saw what happened when Iggy scored like an all-star in 2001-02 and Calgary didn't have Kiprusoff-they didn't go anywhere. I'd conclude from that Kipper should get paid big bucks, not Iggy.

The equation you're trying so hard to push is that if they're winning, Iggy must be worth his money. That's what it boils down to. The percentage of Flames goals he scored isn't relevant to the question of whether he's paid properly relevant to the league-it's a strong argument that he should be the highest paid forward on the Flames but that's about it.

Now really, you weren't actually suggesting that Torres is a better hockey player than Iggy, were you? If money wasn't an object you'd choose Torres? Not very "nuanced" thinking on your part. More like "concrete".

Iggy has facets to his game that Torres lacks. Many of them. If he's such a fantastic goalscorer though, I'd really expect him to be able to outscore Torres. I mean how the hell does Torres outscore a guy like Iggy? Sure, Iggy sees the tougher checkers but come on. Torres gets shunted all over the place and has even spent time with some of the rare Oilers that are bigger offensive sinkholes than the Flames forwards.

I mean if you're happy paying Iggy that money, it's fine by me but it seems glaringly obvious to me that he's getting money and credit for something that isn't really of his doing and the Flames will eventually (this summer or next) be faced with a choice of paying him or paying some of the other guys carrying the load.
 


Jhuck is spitting-cotton mad tonight.

Pre-first round jitters are normal and understandable: I suggest baking a cake or muffins to make yourself feel better.
 


Oh, wait, I thought you were all about nuances... let me repeat them because they have a shitload to do with Iggy's goal scoring. Unless you disagree with them?

"Cheechoo, who was on pace to score 22 in November, can thank Big Joe for that. Iggy doen't have a Big Joe setting him up. Nor does he have Forsberg, Sakic, Spezza & Alfie, Nylander & Straka etc etc. In fact, Iginla usually has to dump the puck in, dig it from the corner and pass it to HIMSELF in front before scoring. How's that for nuanced?

And let's not forget the fact that Calgary plays a checking and defencive game first and foremost, and they do well by it if you hadn't noticed. Pretty damned hard to be the league's top scorer EVERY year on a defensive club, wouldn't you say?

Is that nuanced enough for ya? No? How about the fact that Iginla is the ONLY Flames player other teams constantly shadow with their best checkers and d-men?"


Do you disagree that Iginla scores a large portion of a winning teams goals? That he doesn't get very much help in soring those goals? That Calgary is a defence-first team and it's very difficult to lead the league every year in scoring on such a team? And that he's the #1 target... no, the ONLY target other teams checkers and d-men focus on? And that he gets shadowed to a point that Torres couldn't even comprehend?

"but it seems glaringly obvious to me that he's getting money and credit for something that isn't really of his doing"

What world do you live on? Any player in any league would be paid the exact same thing if their three most recent seasons saw them score more than anyone else and win two scoring titles, with or without much help from other players, and still be the type of leader every team would want.


"that somehow negates the fact that Iggy doesn't score like a $7MM man should"

How many goals does Pronger have? Huh? Or is there more to it than that - nuances, like you said, but yet ignore when talking about Iggy? Do you actually believe that all Iginla does is sit in front of the net waiting for a pass? Have you ever even watched him play?

Shit. Put Iginla on any other team... no, SWAP him with any other player and see not only how each player does, but also how each team does. The only other players who might perform better and make the Flames a little better, that I can think of, is Thornton, and possibly Jagr, Sakic, Sundin, but other than Thornton, they would never hit and fight and pump the team up the way Iggy does. Forsberg? Bandaid. Heatley, Spezza, and Alfie do well as a pack, but not alone. Torres? Fuck, give me a break. Ovechkin? He's never seen his own end of the rink, but give him a few years, because just like Yzerman a decade ago and Iggy today, he'll be taught that hockey is played at both ends of the ice in order to win games.

Scoring 50 EVERY year is wonderful, but what good does it do if you don't win games.
 


"Jhuck is spitting-cotton mad tonight."

Actually, embarrassing you guys with logic is fun.
 


jhuck, the point is, who would you rather give 7 million to? Jarome or the Kipper?

I think it's your goalie. The whole arguement of Jarome not having a Thornton playing beside him is just plain stupid because Torres doesn't have that either.

We have Mike Friggin Peca for crying out loud.
 


"Scoring 50 EVERY year is wonderful, but what good does it do if you don't win games."

Uhhh, exactly?

2001-2002 Jarome Iginla: 52 goals, 25.8% of team scoring
2001-2002 Calgary Flames Record: 32-35-12

2003-2004 Calgary Flames without Kiprusoff in net: 18-23-3
2003-2004 Calgary Flames with Kiprusoff in net: 24-10-3

So, who is worth 7 mil because he "helps get you 46 wins and a division title."

I know the whole Kipper thing has been beaten to death, but I think Cosh and MC's overall points are that Iginla is not worth 7 mil because: A)He's not scoring well even relative to his own past performances, and B)he's not the reason that Calgary is #1 in the NW.
And quite frankly, no matter how much you screech derisively at them, your argument cannot refute those points.
 


Apparantly Jim Kelly has picked up my Wild/Flames comparison from a month or so ago.

http://www2.sportsnet.ca/blogs/jim_kelley/2006/04/18/flames_are_a_winning_wild/
 


On the other hand, if the Flames fans are dead set on Iginla having the money, and they don't mind the salary-cap implications, more power to 'em. But I would love to go back in time to tell these jags at the start of the year how the season panned out. "So, Iggy was healthy all year, how many points did he get? I'm sure he broke through 100 easily with the improved lineup, right?

"No? Well, he must have gotten 90, yeah?

"Jesus. Tell me he got 80. He must have cleared 80.

"Are you kidding me? ARE YOU JOKING WITH ME. I can't believe he only broke 70...

"...he didn't break 70? LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! NOT LISTENING!"

The reasoning after the fact (cf.: JHuck) is that the team won so Iggy must have been great. Easy thing to tell yourself before the Stanley Cup tournament starts, even if you have been downgraded from "overall league favourite" to "in tough against a charging Anaheim team." The team may even justify the willful blindness, who knows?
 


Anahiem is actually an interesting team to watch in the playoffs this year. Ginguere has shown in the past that he's capable of carrying a team almost all the way to a cup. While Seleane is having the best year I can recall him having since the Finnish Flash donned a Winnipeg Jets jersey. Throw MacDonald, Getszlaf and a few other players into the mix and with their play down the stretch, you could see that team making some noise.
 


Ok, guys. You think Iggy is overpaid, even though his salary was determined years ago and has nothing to do with this season. He was paid what any other player on any other team would be in the exact same circumstances. He's paid accordingly, and he earned that salary.

You seem to think that other players on his team shouldn't be a factor in his performance, yet you blame the entire Oiler woes on a selected few.

You compare Iggy to other players in the league who play with totally different players in totally different styled systems. If you don't think a defensive system should be any different than any other, then look at Reinprecht. He's lighting it up in Phoenix after being barely average in Calgary, but he's not helping them win any more games than usual. If Iggy had 3 goals to Reinprecht's 1 in Calgary, it's safe to assume that Iggy would have 3 times more than him in Phoenix as well.

You guys seem to be the only people who can't grasp the fact that the amount of goals a player scores doesn't automatically signify his valaue. Do you really believe Cheechoo is the best player in the NHL? Really?

You think that Kipper is the only one winning Flames games even though the entire league also talks about and focuses on Calgary's defense, matching their intensity, and covering Iginla. Kipper has 0 goals. You need goals to win. Calgary has 46 wins. Iggy is the main reason Calgary scores those goals. Replacing Iginla with another Langkow or Torres-type player would have the same effect as replacing Kipper with a Rolos... er, no, someone at least average... say Legace or Cujo. Except that Iggy is also the team leader and motivator.

By your reasoning, Smyth is an overpaid bum for the simple fact that he only has 15 ev strength goals compared to Torres' 21. Right? In fact Smyth is only 4th in Oiler scoring. He Even has less points than Iggy. He truly is a panty waste. Of course, you would then argue that Smyth has other tangibles that make him good. But not Iggy.

According to Oiler logic, players shouldn't have multi-year contracts and should only be paid by the goal.

Oiler logic believes that Sutter was lucky to land Kipper, even though he coached him in San Jose and NHL teams use people called "scouts", but that would be embarrassing to you, since it was Oiler scouts who pushed for Roloson.


Colby, your slipping.."On the other hand, if the Flames fans are dead set on Iginla having the money, and they don't mind the salary-cap implications, more power to 'em. But I would love to go back in time to tell these jags at the start of the year how the season panned out."

This is where you say the Flames won the division, Kipper was great, the defence was solid as usual, and Iggy was the leading scorer by a large margin. Money obviously well spent. Oh, yeah, the Oilers barely made the playoffs because the Canucks jumped out the window, and are now relying on Minnesota's 36 year old back up goalie to get them past the best offence in the league.

And I'd much rather have Iggy on the 3rd place Flames and facing the ooooohhh scary Ducks than Dwayne/Jussi/Conky on the 8th place Oilers facing the best team in the league. Maybe if you keep telling yourselves that Detroit played easier teams so they're not really that good, the Oilers might justify your willful blindness.

Iggy has 35 goals, the same amount he had two seasons ago, right between two league scoring titles. This isn't Edmonton, where we boo our players off the ice when they aren't the best in the world all the time.
 


No, you don't boo them off the ice. You just stop showing up to games.

And the Red Mile has way fewer drunken sluts flashing their breasts at random passers-by.
 


If Iggy had 3 goals to Reinprecht's 1 in Calgary, it's safe to assume that Iggy would have 3 times more than him in Phoenix as well.

This shit is "make me laugh out loud in the library" type funny. Reinprecht has 12 goals in 28 games in Phoenix. Leaving aside the idea that he's probably just on a hot streak, you really think that if Iggy played in Phoenix, he'd score at a pace that would put him at 105 goals for the season??

What kind of hallucinogenic drugs are you on sir?

You think Iggy is overpaid, even though his salary was determined years ago and has nothing to do with this season. He was paid what any other player on any other team would be in the exact same circumstances. He's paid accordingly, and he earned that salary.

Sentence 1 and 2 work. Sentence 3 does not necessarily follow. How is the exact same argument not applicable to Mike Peca? Using your
"method" of determining whether a guy is overpaid, no one would be overpaid except for the rare guy like Martin Lapointe.


Of course, you would then argue that Smyth has other tangibles that make him good. But not Iggy.

Fuck jhuck. Read my goddamn posts. Like the parts where I say

Iggy has facets to his game that Torres lacks. Many of them.

Same applies to Smyth.

In fact Smyth is only 4th in Oiler scoring. He Even has less points than Iggy. He truly is a panty waste.

Sweet jeebus. Smyth finished 1 point behind Iggy. He also played 7 fewer games and costs $3.5MM less.

This isn't Edmonton, where we boo our players off the ice when they aren't the best in the world all the time.

Yeah, what can I say. The standards that have been set in Edmonton (Win the Cup!) are a little higher than those set in Calgary (Win a series once every 10 years!).


Oiler logic believes that Sutter was lucky to land Kipper, even though he coached him in San Jose and NHL teams use people called "scouts", but that would be embarrassing to you, since it was Oiler scouts who pushed for Roloson.

Jeez, you'd think if he knew that Kipper was going to be this good, he would have traded for him in 2002-03 rather than let the Flames season go down the shitter or in the summer of 2003-04 rather than have the Flames get off to a bad start on the backs of shitty goalies.

I mean my god...not only does Sutter have a magical ability to identify great goalies that has only once come to the fore but he also knew that the playoff race would be more exciting to the fans if he waited until mid-November to pick up a goalie? What a showman!
 


Cosh, where did this come from?

Statistically, the Oilers had the league's number-one defence this year; they allowed fewer than three goals per game, despite having Bozo the Clown in net for most of the year.

Looking at GA/G, EDM is 2.95 and that ranks 12th. Which stat do you use to get "the leagues number-one defense"?
 


>You guys seem to be the only people who can't grasp the fact that the amount of goals a player scores doesn't automatically signify his valaue.

And what of it? I've seen plenty of games this year where I barely even noticed "Jarmoe" as a factor in the game. Meanwhile in Washington, Alexander Ovechkin always looks dangerous playing for nothing with Chris Clark as a linemate.

He's still a keeper, but not worth the league maximum of $7 million. Nor is that bum Peca worth $4 million, let alone $1 million.
 


How does sentence three not work? It's a freakin' summary of the first two sentences, for crying out loud. It's like talking to a wall... or someone who thinks the 8th seeded Oilers are a better club than a 3rd place team.

No I don't think Iggy would score that many with Phoenix, but he would have a lot more than he does now, just like he would probably be leading the league if he had Thornton on his line. That was my whole point. Sorry if it's too deep for you to understand.

You do realize that you said this... "Iggy has facets to his game that Torres lacks. Many of them" after laughing at Iggy by comparing him to Torres. You realize that, right? Indeed, what kind of hallucinogenic drugs are you on sir?

I give you a wonderful example, Cheechoo, who was on pace for 23 goals until Thornton showed up to give him the scoring title, yet you refuse to believe that this type of help doesn't apply to Iggy.

I give you another example, Reinprecht who left the Flames' defensive system and began to score a a great pace, yet you refuse to admit that this same Flames defensive system might have an impact on Iginla.

Nuances apply to the Oilers, but cannot apply to Iginla, right?

You also refuse to admit that Sutter, when looking for a number one goalie, knew the potential Kipper had because he actually coached him. Sutter wasn't looking for a back up, like a Boucher or a Roloson, he needed a #1 goalie because Turek was hurt, so he obviously thought Kipper had it in him, otherwise he would have gone elsewhere.

Originally I said that one shouldn't be harping on Iggy's salary and not say anything about Peca, but I've changed my mind. Iggy has earned his salary, over multiple seasons and will be a threat for at least a few more years, whereas I don't think Peca has ever earned his salary, at least not in the last few years..
 


The concept is that Edmonton has the league's number-one defence if you correct for the save percentage of its goalies--statistically, that is, the best defencemen. They allowed just 25.5 shots per game for the season, which was the best figure in the league. Only Detroit and San Jose were remotely close.

Even nonstatistically, I think you could find a lot of people outside Alberta who would say that the Oilers have the best, or nearly the best, top six right now. Who else has a player of Steve Staios's quality in the #5 slot?
 


"Even nonstatistically, I think you could find a lot of people outside Alberta who would say that the Oilers have the best, or nearly the best, top six right now. Who else has a player of Steve Staios's quality in the #5 slot? "

I'll agree with that. I'd say the Flames are just as good with Warrerner as #5 d-man - that's with Hamrlik and Leopold healthy. Detroit has a very good d-fence, so does Ottawa when Phillips comes back. Other than that, though, not too many teams come very close.
 


I'm not sure which I'd rather skate into - a Phaneuf/Regher defence or a Pronger/Smith defence.
 


Does the number of shots matter, or is it the quality of shots?

I think that depends upon the goalie, and especially the rebound control of the goalie/defense.

But I don't know if there is any quantifiable 'stat' to measure this.

Does anyone recall years ago there was a web applet that would show the rink and mark where shots were taken from, a different mark if it scored?

I wonder if anything like that exists where you could determine the distance & angle of shots? It won't account for screens, and I'm not sure how to record tips/deflections, but it would be interesting.
 


I give you a wonderful example, Cheechoo, who was on pace for 23 goals until Thornton showed up to give him the scoring title, yet you refuse to believe that this type of help doesn't apply to Iggy.

jhuck, I think the point is that Cheechoo earns nothing close to what Iginla earns. Cheechoo may need some help to score all those goals, but the fact that he's only earning $760,000 right now means SJ can easily afford to bring in a guy like Thorton to set him up.
Sure, Cheechoo will be earning a hell of alot more money in a few years, but if it's $7million/year, and he's not leading the league in scoring or points, or right up there at least, people are gonna call him overpaid and underperforming.

Which is exactly what this argument about Iginla is.
 


God, would you just give Iginla a raise already? The guy does so much intangibly how can you possibly expect to keep him at a paltry $7 MM / year in the face of a rising salary cap?

Jesus, the guy's going to be bolting for Russia soon if we keep lowballing him.



I think the Flames' defensive play must stem from the Calgary fans' defensive argument style. Stingy indeed. Talk about Iginla, suddenly they are attacking Smyth. Talk about goals, and they are talking about leadership. Talk about defensive style, and they talk about division titles. Talk about salary vs. results, and they tell us that we cannot possibly look at current results against a salary earned over the past three years.

We get it already, Calgary. You're always right. Thank goodness you keep reminding us, though.
 


"Which is exactly what this argument about Iginla is. "

That point is only valid if Cheechoo could also come into Calgary and do what Iginla does for the team in the same defensive style the Flames play. Which he couldn't. (see the whole 23-goal-pace-until-miracle-worker-showed-up bit, Cheechoo woule be hard pressed to score 20-25 in Iggy's shoes)

Very few players, if any, in the world could replace Iggy, play Flames hard-checking/defence-first hockey, be the complete player Iggy is, still score the same amount or more goals without the use of a great playmaker, and all without jepardizing the number of wins.

His two scoring titles and the most total goals in the previous three years earned him his salary. That's not overpaying him. That's how reality works in the NHL.

The only argument you could try and make is the underperforming part, which I don't believe he is. At least not to the point you say he is, since he's probably doing as much, if not more, than anyone else could in his exact same situation.

This year every Flame, not just Iginla, is seeing point production drop (see Reinprecht) in order to play Sutter hockey, which has seen them win 46 games this year. As we've already made quite clear, winning is more important than point production, and just like Yzerman a decade ago, Iggy saw his production drop (for this year) in order to become a more complete player and help the Flames win more games, which is why we saw Iginla penalty killing more and more as the year progressed.
 


Jhuck said the following
"
By your reasoning, Smyth is an overpaid bum for the simple fact that he only has 15 ev strength goals compared to Torres' 21. Right? In fact Smyth is only 4th in Oiler scoring. He Even has less points than Iggy. He truly is a panty waste. Of course, you would then argue that Smyth has other tangibles that make him good. But not Iggy."

as per NHL.com

Ryan Smyth GP 75 Goals 36 assists 30 points 66 Salary 3.5 million

Jerome Iginla GP 82 goals 35 assits 32 points 67 Salary 7 million

Look whose 17th in scoring and whose in 18th. Jerome the goal scoring machine is being outscored by the 'panty waist' Ryan Smyth, and Jerome has all those 'intangibles' which amount to one extra point. Looks like a 3.5 million dollar point, but to be fair Smyth probably deserves a raise after a good season, so Ignala is probably only over paid by about 2 million dollars.

The statistical side of things is mudcrutch's gig, but I think most of us can do a little bit of math. You know, 36 goals being better than 35.
 


(see the whole 23-goal-pace-until-miracle-worker-showed-up bit, Cheechoo woule be hard pressed to score 20-25 in Iggy's shoes)

Beat that as much as you want jhuck. Cheechoo scored 28 goals as a 23 year old in a far more defensive NHL. You can keep repeating that he was on a 22 goal pace until you're blue in the face but guys who score 28 at 23 should score more when they NHL ups the offence by 18% and he's two years older. While it's interesting that his renaissance coincided with Thornton's arrival, it seems likely to me that this guy was a good goalscorer off to a slow start and not some complete schlub.

At least not to the point you say he is, since he's probably doing as much, if not more, than anyone else could in his exact same situation.

If the situation is at fault, how do you explain his no-show in Torino? A bunch of the best offensive players in the world and I'd probably be unduly complimentary if I described his offensive play as "shitty".
 


I agree that Iginla was overpaid this year, that doesn't mean he necessarily will be next year. In any case, when the contract was signed I don't think it was a bad deal, and it's balanced with Kipper's underpaid status (assuming they keep both for the next 2 years until they are UFA's.

And if this summer they decide they want to move Iginla and go in another direction (which they won't) they'd still get good value for him because guaranteed there's gonna be a couple teams that think this year is an anomoly (which it may or may not be)
 


"While it's interesting that his renaissance coincided with Thornton's arrival"

Yes, very interesting.

And what the hell does Torino have to do with it? Are you singling out Iggy for their lack of scoring? Good grief, what I remember of Torino is Pronger looking like a pylon.

Unless you can name me 8 or 9 players that "could replace Iggy, play Flames hard-checking/defence-first hockey, be the complete player Iggy is, still score the same amount or more goals without the use of a great playmaker, and all without jepardizing the number of wins", then Iggy is getting paid appropriately.

Cheechoo sure as hell couldn't. I've seen him play, corners aren't his thing. He's a wait in front for a pass kind of player, a la Glen Murray. The only players I can think of who could possibly get more goals or points, AND play Flames' hockey the way Sutter wants, AND help the team win more than Iggy are Thornton, Jagr, Sakic, and Sundin. You might convince me on a few others, but they will all be elite players earning top dollars.

That, combined with his scoring titles and most goals in the last 4 years, shows he's getting paid the same as anyone else would.
 


Wow, your diagnosis of Canada's problem in Turin is awfully acute, Dr. Hockey. What the rest of the universe remembers from Turin is that Team Canada got shut out in 11 of its last 12 periods. But clearly, as you say, the blame for that has to go to the slow blueline play of [an injured] Chris Pronger, rather than to "elite goal-scorers" like Jarmoe.
 


"as you say, the blame for that has to go to the slow blueline play of [an injured] Chris Pronger"

Huh? Excuse me?

I wasn't the one wildly accusing a single player of losing the olympics. I said I remember a slow moving Pronger. If it stops you from crying, then I also remember other slow d-men. But I also remember every other forward besides Iggy who couldn't score.

Even you should have been able to grasp the fact that bringing Turin up, and blaming Iggy for it, was pathetic and irrelevant.

Next time, try not to accuse me of things I did not say. You've been hangin' around the CP message boards too much, Mr. cAsh.

Dr. Hockey
 


I wasn't the one wildly accusing a single player of losing the olympics.

I wasn't accusing one player of losing the Olympics. I was merely pointing out that Iggy, freed of the deadweight that surrounds him at forward in Calgary, continued to suck at the Olympics. If you want to blame the situation and he sucks in other situations...somethings not right.

Holy fuck jhuck. Go back and look at my comment again and try and figure out how that's "blaming" Iggy for Torino. Are you his mother or something?
 


This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 


Holy fuck Mud, wipe the spittle off your monitor and relax. Sheesh. This is a family blog. No need to get all upset over some friendly rivalry banter.

I'll be the first grown-up on this thread and admit that I mistook your comment, irrelevant as it was.

For everything else, though, I have to say that I've been right and you were wrong.

Dr. Hockey
 


I'll be the first grown-up on this thread and admit that I mistook your comment, irrelevant as it was.

Hah! Claiming to be a grown-up is code for "I'm a pussy!"

It was, of course, entirely relevant, as you're crying away that Jarmoe is held in check by Sutter's system and the schmoes he's playing with. Iggy went to the Olympics and played like he'd been rollinga around in broken glass.
 


Get along, kids. You are staring to sound like the lunatics on that other board.
 


I agree. Mud needs to take a breather. I was having fun , but I think he's beginning to pop some blood vessles.
 


"I agree. Mud needs to take a breather. I was having fun , but I think he's beginning to pop some blood vessles."

I think it's laughable for you to think that you're somehow being the bigger man here. The only constant in this thread has been your frothing at the mouth, instigated by the great injustice of us poking fun at a player who maybe didn't earn all 7 mil of his salary this year.

As I might also note, you're the only one who also seems to be bringing over the aforementioned antagonism to another newer thread.

Laughable indeed.
 


" The only constant in this thread has been your frothing at the mouth..."

Actually, I find it fun. It's Mud who seems to have gotten continually more and more upset, unfortunately. Which is why I apologized after he began using "fuck" to start every sentence. No need for anyone to get too worked up over a comment thread. Of course, that only made him call me a pussy, which made me laugh, which I hope doesn't piss him off even more. It's a vicious cycle, non?


"As I might also note, you're the only one who also seems to be bringing over the aforementioned antagonism to another newer thread."

Do you mean in the "MISC" post, right under the "takes and trash talk from both sides..." header, in which I'm talking about an entirely different subject? You are kidding, right? Have you even read anyone else's comments regarding their rival team?


This is just too funny. (And I am truly sorry if that makes you mad. Truly. Sorry.)
 


I'm not mad. I was actually trying to tell you that the only one coming off as taking this all too personally is you. But, whatever, feel free to continue.
 


Oh what the hell, just so you know, when I say you're being antagonistic, it's just a nice way of saying you're being a bitch. And just so there is absolutely no way you can be confused again in the future...

an·tag·o·nism - actively expressed opposition or hostility

Please note that there is no implication of subject, thanks.
 


" it's just a nice way of saying you're being a bitch. "

Would that qualify as being antagonistic?

Listen, I'm sorry I ruined your Iggy hate-fest. I promise to never disagree with you again.
 


My knowledge of Matt, Sac, Cosh, Tyler and jhuck, limited as it is to being dorks online, is that they all pretty much have the same sense of humour as me: dry and biting. I think this whole thing has been hilarious. Not at all unfunny, like Cosh nominating Iginla for the Byng. That was really unfunny; apparently it was racial genocide jokes unfunny.
 


"Would that qualify as being antagonistic? "

Sure would. I'm quite glad this whole thread happened actually, at least no one can call BoA a circle jerk now (arguably).
 


Wow. That was fun.

I'd just like to add to the thread that, as a fan of the Flames and a regular attendee at the Saddledome, it is my opinion that while Iginla might be overpaid at $7 million, there is not a single forward in the league I would trade up for him. The same goes for Kiprusoff in exchange for any other single goaltender straight up.

Therefore, according to the economics of the NHL, if Iginla makes the league maximum, then that is money well spent. You would be hard-pressed to find any Flames fan to say different.


Kudos to Cosh, mudcrutch79 and my big brother for the energetic commentary.
 


Yay.

I was out of Asprin and beer anyways.
 


In defence of my choice of words and by implication my state of mind at the time of posting, it should be noted that I've prefaced questions of reknowned professors with "Fuck..." or "This fucking guy..."

I should rarely be taken seriously in an online debate. Particularly when I'm saying things like "Claiming to be the bigger man is a coward's way of acknowledging he's a pussy" or whatever it was.

Good times. And jhuck was wrong about everything.
 


Wow.

Now if Cosh would just unclench his fists and jaw maybe we could all get together, strip down to our bras and panties and have a tickle fight in which we end up giggling on the floor in a group hug.
 


What is it with Calgarians wanting to strip the moment the playoffs arrive?
 

Post a Comment

<< Home

This page is powered by Blogger. Isn't yours?