Monday, September 29, 2008
Battle Game Day: Tale of the Tape
It's a day early, but what the heck: let's start fighting now.
Oilers
Cole-Horcoff-Hemsky
Nilsson-Cogliano-Gagner
Moreau-Pisani-Penner
Pouliot-Brodziak-Stortini
Souray-Visnovsky
Gilbert-Staios
Smid-Grebeshkov
Garon
Roloson
Flames
Bertuzzi-Langkow-Iginla
Bourque-Lombardi-Cammallieri
Glencross-Conroy-Moss
Nystrom-Primeau-Boyd
Phaneuf-Regehr
Aucoin-Sarich
Giordano-Vandermeer
Kiprusoff
McElhinney
I don't know if the Flames depth chart is exactly right, as they don't have a funky depth chart page like the Oilers do (suck it, Flames IT guys!), and I'm usually blinded by drunken rage when I watch them, but you get the idea. These aren't going to be the lineups when these two teams face each other Tuesday night (7 p.m. MST, no TV*), but the question is, which team would you prefer to start the season with? I know I feel comfortable matching any of the Oilers four offensive lines against the Flames four offensive lines. Even on defence I feel comfortable, as the Flames have two guys who can play and four guys who are just okay. In goal the Flames have the advantage, but by how much, and for how long? I have to say, I look at these lineups, and I feel pretty damn good. You?
GOILERS.
* the game is actually on Sportsnet West at 7 p.m. MST. Thanks to the anonymous commenter for letting us know.
Oilers
Nilsson-Cogliano-Gagner
Moreau-Pisani-Penner
Pouliot-Brodziak-Stortini
Souray-Visnovsky
Gilbert-Staios
Smid-Grebeshkov
Garon
Roloson
Flames
Bourque-Lombardi-Cammallieri
Glencross-Conroy-Moss
Nystrom-Primeau-Boyd
Phaneuf-Regehr
Aucoin-Sarich
Giordano-Vandermeer
Kiprusoff
McElhinney
I don't know if the Flames depth chart is exactly right, as they don't have a funky depth chart page like the Oilers do (suck it, Flames IT guys!), and I'm usually blinded by drunken rage when I watch them, but you get the idea. These aren't going to be the lineups when these two teams face each other Tuesday night (7 p.m. MST, no TV*), but the question is, which team would you prefer to start the season with? I know I feel comfortable matching any of the Oilers four offensive lines against the Flames four offensive lines. Even on defence I feel comfortable, as the Flames have two guys who can play and four guys who are just okay. In goal the Flames have the advantage, but by how much, and for how long? I have to say, I look at these lineups, and I feel pretty damn good. You?
GOILERS.
* the game is actually on Sportsnet West at 7 p.m. MST. Thanks to the anonymous commenter for letting us know.
# posted by andy grabia @ 5:12 pm 
Comments:
Even on defence I feel comfortable...
Maybe I'm more optimistic about the season than I thought, because when I read that I suddenly heard Supertramp in my head. Dream-er..... you know you are a dream-er
I just can't look at Aucoin, Sarich, Giordano, and Vandermeer and feel anything but confident, even knowing that Souray is likely to play 20 games on the season. I have no idea how we will do overall on the season, but there's no reason at all we can't at least be better than the Flames. Well, maybe one reason (Kipper), but I really do think he is done.
Don't imagine this would make the most scientific poll here at this site, but if we did:
Who is most likely to devastate his own team's fans with his crappiness?
* Mathieu Garon
* Miikka Kiprusoff
...then I'd go with Garon, and I'm nowhere near psyched about a Kipper renaissance.
Flames have the edge. The diapers on all of the young Oilers players adds too much drag, the Flames can just zip 'round them.
the Flames can just zip 'round them.
I will admit that the kid line may in fact regress this year, but there's no way anyone other than Lombardi is outskating Cogliano. And Bertuzzi is a pylon. I actually think I did drills around him at a camp last week.
Who is most likely to devastate his own team's fans with his crappiness?
* Mathieu Garon
* Miikka Kiprusoff
That's an excellent question, and the kind of discussion I was trying to generate with this post. I just can't believe your answer. There is no way fans in Edmonton are as invested in their goalie's play as fans in Calgary are. There's just no way. Ask the #8 bus guy which player is most critical to the Oilers success, and Garon doesn't even make the top three. It would be Gagner, Hemsky, and Souray. Maybe even Cole, Visnovsky and Penner would rank higher. Ask dude on the #666 bus in Calgary, and the answer is simple: Kipper and Iginla. Kipper and Iginla. Kipper and Iginla.
"no TV"
Not that pre-season hockey is the best, this apparently is on television (RSN/West). At least that's what that Connected show told me so who knows.
Meh. Hockey's hockey. I'll watch.
Good to hear from you again Andy.
Not that pre-season hockey is the best, this apparently is on television (RSN/West). At least that's what that Connected show told me so who knows.
Sweet. This schedule on the Oilers page says no TV, but this one says it is on Sportsnet.
There is no way fans in Edmonton are as invested in their goalie's play as fans in Calgary are. There's just no way. Ask the #8 bus guy which player is most critical to the Oilers success, and Garon doesn't even make the top three.
I'll defer to your assumption about what Sacamano thinks, but... I suppose this is my point. Fans in Edmonton, like everywhere else, are quite invested in the play of their goalie, whether they want to be or not. (And being blindsided is a BITCH.) I'd be happy, like you did, to credit Calgary fan for understanding this, but it seems kinda excessive... this is a law of nature.
Or perhaps Garon's track record, when you squint at it in the right light, is impressive enough to put any goaltending concerns in Edmonton at ease.
Or perhaps Garon's track record, when you squint at it in the right light, is impressive enough to put any goaltending concerns in Edmonton at ease.
No it's not, which is why any fall on his part would be less substantial, and troubling, than the fall of Vezina-Trophy winner/ Finnish Jesus Miikka Kirpusoff.
No it's not, which is why any fall on his part would be less substantial, and troubling, than the fall of Vezina-Trophy winner/ Finnish Jesus Miikka Kirpusoff.
Oh, I see. So Garon is not in the top 3 (or top 6) of players anyone is concerned about, and that's NOT because he's considered reliable, it's because... no one would be too broken up if he shit the bed? That makes sense. Do the Oilers not need good goaltending, or is this the year Hemsky makes the leap and improves his save percentage?
wow, a real battle of alberta! i thought the stats columns (which i love) had taken all the zesty and intelligent put- downs* out of this blog.
glad to see them back.
*i don't mean dumb put- downs from the occasional posters like "flames/oilers suck", etc.
Kipper is being paid 8.5 million this season (5.8 cap hit). Garon and Roli combined are making 4 (4.7 cap hit).
Kipper is assured the starting job for the next 4-5 years, Garon and Roli are UFAs at the end of the season.
Moving on, I'd have my bottom 6 as:
Penner-Pouliot-Pisani
Moreau-Brodziak-Stortini
The Flying Fridge and Saint Fernando need a passer, and Pouliot fits the bill, and can hopefully handle some heavy lifting (say the Flames 2nd line).
Penner should get PP time over Cole, he has better hands and makes a better screen, otherwise keep Cole with Horc and Hemsky. They're gonna have to play the top lines for the most part.
And I like the D, a puck mover on every line. Sure we've got injury concerns, but so does every team.
I haven't been this excited for a season to start since the lockout. And this is only a goddamn pre-season game! 13 days till the real puck drops!
Bring it Flamers! Goilers!
it's because... no one would be too broken up if he shit the bed?
I think Andy's point is that none of the Oilers fans would be too surprised if Garon shit the bed. Which isn't exactly a vote of confidence, obviously, but it at least means we wouldn't be as devastated by it, since it's somewhat foreseeable.
And also, has "number 8 bus guy" officially become the word for the average fan?
Guess what? I had a ticket for this game drop in my lap tonight, so I'll get a chance to see these guys in the flesh (if that's the right term when considering Todd Bertuzzombi). Any team that has Buttugly pencilled onto its FIRST LINE teeheehee is living pretty seriously, and distantly, in the past. Then again, it IS a Mike Keenan team, isn't it?
The Falmes' other big concern is that Mini-Kipper will outperform his idol for the second year in a row.
Ha! I'm ready to drop the puck right now!
I hate both teams passionately. But the Flames are gonna roll over the Oil due to superior defence and goaltending. Garon will be a bust, and Khabibulin will come into Edmonton by Christmas to try to make the playoffs.
And furthermore, while the Oilers are granted young and looking okay, they pale in comparison to highend talent to Chicago. The Hawks are the young upcomin team not the Oil. Most fans see it, Oil fans have no clue mostly...
Long season comin folks!
This is one of the most evenly matched Alberta rivalries in recent memory. The optimism is high in both cities, however we each have our faults. I agree with you, Andy. The Oiler's goaltending situation is what's keeping me up at nights. Minnesota may have been able to successfully alternate goalies, but I don't know how well an Oil team can do that.
I can just imagine how many bodies they'll find floating in the Bow River the day after if Kipper or Iginla gets traded.
I'm sure I'm missing something subtle (or not so subtle) but Kipper's GAA and SV% have worsened season over season for 3 years while Garon's have improved...why shouldn't this trend continue? I sure don't think goaltending is going to be the difference.
-Lonnie
Breaking news: the Oilers are calling up Perugini, so he can play forward with Cogliano and Pisani against Bertuzzi, Lombardi, and Cammalleri. The idea is to see if Rod Phillips or Peter Maher will actually start talking in one of those "thatsa nice-a meatball!" accents.
And Dave, my policy is that "the people on the #8 bus" only refers to Joe and Jane Oilfan in the plural, and when it's used in the singular, it refers to Sacamano.
If the Oilers get lousy goaltending this year, the fans **will be devastated**, because it'll mean missing the playoffs among other things.
I'm not convinced that Garon's track record is as crap as some people think. From 2002-05, he cleaned up in the AHL and in small backup samples in the NHL. He got killed by a terrible Kings team in '06, but followed it up by posting solid numbers on two defensively terrible teams in the '07 Kings and '08 Oilers.
For the record, though, last year was Kiprusoff's worst statistically since 2002-03. So maybe both guys see their numbers go up and we have a legit goalie battle on our hands at some point. I confess to knowing very little about the position, beyond the minimal insight I've gained playing as a keeper in my rec soccer league (Insight #1: it fucking hurts), but I'm not scared right now, if that's the question.
Good to have you back Andy!
Matt was starting to get really annoying.
Go Flames Go
Ooohh, I've missed the old sniping.
Over/under on some Oiler fan spitting hateful invectives at Phaneuf tonight...5 minutes in? 10?
As an fyi,
Yell at each other about the facts all you want, but avoid the name calling or you'll be deleted. I don't care which team you cheer for.
A fine discussio of expectations for Mathieu Garon can be found here:
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-you-shouldnt-bet-on-mathieu-garon.html
As an Oiler fan it makes me weep a little bit. Maybe Roli will be better?
Yell at each other about the facts all you want, but avoid the name calling or you'll be deleted. I don't care which team you cheer for
This was clearly directed at me, given that my recent post is no longer in existence (I stand by my statements about Canuck fans). My apologies for my little "rant" - I'm in a grouchy, grouchy mood this morning. Apparently three hours of sleep on a Monday night isn't enough...who knew!
I'd be more PO'd if tonight's game was a regular season tilt. Due to a "prior committment", this one's getting PVR'd. No big loss - it's preseason.
Which leads to an interesting question about Sportsnet - with Quinn gone to Vancouver and Loubardias doing Flames games, who the heck is the Oilers TV PBP guy?
From TSN, the Oilers have added a bit of "beef" to the organization....
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=251260&lid=sublink02&lpos=headlines_nhl
This guy was running around early in one of the Florida games last week and my buddy and I were riding him and comparing him to Boogard.
And now, he's an Oiler....not a shrinking violet, that's for sure....
For the Flamers: what's been the early consensus on Glencross?
Reviews all seem fairly positive. His competition at the bottom of the roster isn't very stiff, you understand (Nystrom, Prust, Roy, Primeau...)
...with Quinn gone to Vancouver and Loubardias doing Flames games, who the heck is the Oilers TV PBP guy?
Quinn is still with the Oilers (I believe Shorthouse got the Canucks gig). Colour guy is Louie DeBrusk. And the inimitable Gene Principe remains as host of Bell Oilers Hockey.
Over/under on some Oiler fan spitting hateful invectives at Phaneuf tonight...5 minutes in? 10?
Kent: This Oiler fan is thinking of working the word "Ugly" into a new rendition of our national anthem. :)
With both Phaneuf and Bertuzzi in the house that word is apt to be heard quite a bit.
Don't imagine this would make the most scientific poll here at this site, but if we did:
Who is most likely to devastate his own team's fans with his crappiness?
* Mathieu Garon
* Miikka Kiprusoff
The answer is obviously Garon because nobody in Calgary appears to give a crap that Kipper ranked 30th in save percentage last year and is staring down the cold barrel of yet another 75-game workload. Whichever two goalies you inserted into such a question, the goalie who was better last year is going to be the answer 9 times out of ten, so what exactly does it prove?
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Even on defence I feel comfortable...
Maybe I'm more optimistic about the season than I thought, because when I read that I suddenly heard Supertramp in my head. Dream-er..... you know you are a dream-er
I just can't look at Aucoin, Sarich, Giordano, and Vandermeer and feel anything but confident, even knowing that Souray is likely to play 20 games on the season. I have no idea how we will do overall on the season, but there's no reason at all we can't at least be better than the Flames. Well, maybe one reason (Kipper), but I really do think he is done.
Don't imagine this would make the most scientific poll here at this site, but if we did:
Who is most likely to devastate his own team's fans with his crappiness?
* Mathieu Garon
* Miikka Kiprusoff
...then I'd go with Garon, and I'm nowhere near psyched about a Kipper renaissance.
Flames have the edge. The diapers on all of the young Oilers players adds too much drag, the Flames can just zip 'round them.
the Flames can just zip 'round them.
I will admit that the kid line may in fact regress this year, but there's no way anyone other than Lombardi is outskating Cogliano. And Bertuzzi is a pylon. I actually think I did drills around him at a camp last week.
Who is most likely to devastate his own team's fans with his crappiness?
* Mathieu Garon
* Miikka Kiprusoff
That's an excellent question, and the kind of discussion I was trying to generate with this post. I just can't believe your answer. There is no way fans in Edmonton are as invested in their goalie's play as fans in Calgary are. There's just no way. Ask the #8 bus guy which player is most critical to the Oilers success, and Garon doesn't even make the top three. It would be Gagner, Hemsky, and Souray. Maybe even Cole, Visnovsky and Penner would rank higher. Ask dude on the #666 bus in Calgary, and the answer is simple: Kipper and Iginla. Kipper and Iginla. Kipper and Iginla.
"no TV"
Not that pre-season hockey is the best, this apparently is on television (RSN/West). At least that's what that Connected show told me so who knows.
Meh. Hockey's hockey. I'll watch.
Good to hear from you again Andy.
# posted by 
: September 29, 2008 8:12 pm
: September 29, 2008 8:12 pm Not that pre-season hockey is the best, this apparently is on television (RSN/West). At least that's what that Connected show told me so who knows.
Sweet. This schedule on the Oilers page says no TV, but this one says it is on Sportsnet.
There is no way fans in Edmonton are as invested in their goalie's play as fans in Calgary are. There's just no way. Ask the #8 bus guy which player is most critical to the Oilers success, and Garon doesn't even make the top three.
I'll defer to your assumption about what Sacamano thinks, but... I suppose this is my point. Fans in Edmonton, like everywhere else, are quite invested in the play of their goalie, whether they want to be or not. (And being blindsided is a BITCH.) I'd be happy, like you did, to credit Calgary fan for understanding this, but it seems kinda excessive... this is a law of nature.
Or perhaps Garon's track record, when you squint at it in the right light, is impressive enough to put any goaltending concerns in Edmonton at ease.
Or perhaps Garon's track record, when you squint at it in the right light, is impressive enough to put any goaltending concerns in Edmonton at ease.
No it's not, which is why any fall on his part would be less substantial, and troubling, than the fall of Vezina-Trophy winner/ Finnish Jesus Miikka Kirpusoff.
No it's not, which is why any fall on his part would be less substantial, and troubling, than the fall of Vezina-Trophy winner/ Finnish Jesus Miikka Kirpusoff.
Oh, I see. So Garon is not in the top 3 (or top 6) of players anyone is concerned about, and that's NOT because he's considered reliable, it's because... no one would be too broken up if he shit the bed? That makes sense. Do the Oilers not need good goaltending, or is this the year Hemsky makes the leap and improves his save percentage?
wow, a real battle of alberta! i thought the stats columns (which i love) had taken all the zesty and intelligent put- downs* out of this blog.
glad to see them back.
*i don't mean dumb put- downs from the occasional posters like "flames/oilers suck", etc.
# posted by : September 29, 2008 11:17 pm
: September 29, 2008 11:17 pm Kipper is being paid 8.5 million this season (5.8 cap hit). Garon and Roli combined are making 4 (4.7 cap hit).
Kipper is assured the starting job for the next 4-5 years, Garon and Roli are UFAs at the end of the season.
Moving on, I'd have my bottom 6 as:
Penner-Pouliot-Pisani
Moreau-Brodziak-Stortini
The Flying Fridge and Saint Fernando need a passer, and Pouliot fits the bill, and can hopefully handle some heavy lifting (say the Flames 2nd line).
Penner should get PP time over Cole, he has better hands and makes a better screen, otherwise keep Cole with Horc and Hemsky. They're gonna have to play the top lines for the most part.
And I like the D, a puck mover on every line. Sure we've got injury concerns, but so does every team.
I haven't been this excited for a season to start since the lockout. And this is only a goddamn pre-season game! 13 days till the real puck drops!
Bring it Flamers! Goilers!
# posted by : September 29, 2008 11:24 pm
: September 29, 2008 11:24 pm it's because... no one would be too broken up if he shit the bed?
I think Andy's point is that none of the Oilers fans would be too surprised if Garon shit the bed. Which isn't exactly a vote of confidence, obviously, but it at least means we wouldn't be as devastated by it, since it's somewhat foreseeable.
And also, has "number 8 bus guy" officially become the word for the average fan?
Guess what? I had a ticket for this game drop in my lap tonight, so I'll get a chance to see these guys in the flesh (if that's the right term when considering Todd Bertuzzombi). Any team that has Buttugly pencilled onto its FIRST LINE teeheehee is living pretty seriously, and distantly, in the past. Then again, it IS a Mike Keenan team, isn't it?
The Falmes' other big concern is that Mini-Kipper will outperform his idol for the second year in a row.
Ha! I'm ready to drop the puck right now!
I hate both teams passionately. But the Flames are gonna roll over the Oil due to superior defence and goaltending. Garon will be a bust, and Khabibulin will come into Edmonton by Christmas to try to make the playoffs.
And furthermore, while the Oilers are granted young and looking okay, they pale in comparison to highend talent to Chicago. The Hawks are the young upcomin team not the Oil. Most fans see it, Oil fans have no clue mostly...
Long season comin folks!
# posted by : September 30, 2008 12:09 am
: September 30, 2008 12:09 am This is one of the most evenly matched Alberta rivalries in recent memory. The optimism is high in both cities, however we each have our faults. I agree with you, Andy. The Oiler's goaltending situation is what's keeping me up at nights. Minnesota may have been able to successfully alternate goalies, but I don't know how well an Oil team can do that.
I can just imagine how many bodies they'll find floating in the Bow River the day after if Kipper or Iginla gets traded.
I'm sure I'm missing something subtle (or not so subtle) but Kipper's GAA and SV% have worsened season over season for 3 years while Garon's have improved...why shouldn't this trend continue? I sure don't think goaltending is going to be the difference.
-Lonnie
# posted by : September 30, 2008 6:18 am
: September 30, 2008 6:18 am Breaking news: the Oilers are calling up Perugini, so he can play forward with Cogliano and Pisani against Bertuzzi, Lombardi, and Cammalleri. The idea is to see if Rod Phillips or Peter Maher will actually start talking in one of those "thatsa nice-a meatball!" accents.
And Dave, my policy is that "the people on the #8 bus" only refers to Joe and Jane Oilfan in the plural, and when it's used in the singular, it refers to Sacamano.
If the Oilers get lousy goaltending this year, the fans **will be devastated**, because it'll mean missing the playoffs among other things.
I'm not convinced that Garon's track record is as crap as some people think. From 2002-05, he cleaned up in the AHL and in small backup samples in the NHL. He got killed by a terrible Kings team in '06, but followed it up by posting solid numbers on two defensively terrible teams in the '07 Kings and '08 Oilers.
For the record, though, last year was Kiprusoff's worst statistically since 2002-03. So maybe both guys see their numbers go up and we have a legit goalie battle on our hands at some point. I confess to knowing very little about the position, beyond the minimal insight I've gained playing as a keeper in my rec soccer league (Insight #1: it fucking hurts), but I'm not scared right now, if that's the question.
Good to have you back Andy!
Matt was starting to get really annoying.
Go Flames Go
# posted by : September 30, 2008 8:39 am
: September 30, 2008 8:39 am Ooohh, I've missed the old sniping.
Over/under on some Oiler fan spitting hateful invectives at Phaneuf tonight...5 minutes in? 10?
As an fyi,
Yell at each other about the facts all you want, but avoid the name calling or you'll be deleted. I don't care which team you cheer for.
A fine discussio of expectations for Mathieu Garon can be found here:
http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2008/09/why-you-shouldnt-bet-on-mathieu-garon.html
As an Oiler fan it makes me weep a little bit. Maybe Roli will be better?
Yell at each other about the facts all you want, but avoid the name calling or you'll be deleted. I don't care which team you cheer for
This was clearly directed at me, given that my recent post is no longer in existence (I stand by my statements about Canuck fans). My apologies for my little "rant" - I'm in a grouchy, grouchy mood this morning. Apparently three hours of sleep on a Monday night isn't enough...who knew!
I'd be more PO'd if tonight's game was a regular season tilt. Due to a "prior committment", this one's getting PVR'd. No big loss - it's preseason.
Which leads to an interesting question about Sportsnet - with Quinn gone to Vancouver and Loubardias doing Flames games, who the heck is the Oilers TV PBP guy?
From TSN, the Oilers have added a bit of "beef" to the organization....
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=251260&lid=sublink02&lpos=headlines_nhl
This guy was running around early in one of the Florida games last week and my buddy and I were riding him and comparing him to Boogard.
And now, he's an Oiler....not a shrinking violet, that's for sure....
For the Flamers: what's been the early consensus on Glencross?
Reviews all seem fairly positive. His competition at the bottom of the roster isn't very stiff, you understand (Nystrom, Prust, Roy, Primeau...)
...with Quinn gone to Vancouver and Loubardias doing Flames games, who the heck is the Oilers TV PBP guy?
Quinn is still with the Oilers (I believe Shorthouse got the Canucks gig). Colour guy is Louie DeBrusk. And the inimitable Gene Principe remains as host of Bell Oilers Hockey.
Over/under on some Oiler fan spitting hateful invectives at Phaneuf tonight...5 minutes in? 10?
Kent: This Oiler fan is thinking of working the word "Ugly" into a new rendition of our national anthem. :)
With both Phaneuf and Bertuzzi in the house that word is apt to be heard quite a bit.
Don't imagine this would make the most scientific poll here at this site, but if we did:
Who is most likely to devastate his own team's fans with his crappiness?
* Mathieu Garon
* Miikka Kiprusoff
The answer is obviously Garon because nobody in Calgary appears to give a crap that Kipper ranked 30th in save percentage last year and is staring down the cold barrel of yet another 75-game workload. Whichever two goalies you inserted into such a question, the goalie who was better last year is going to be the answer 9 times out of ten, so what exactly does it prove?
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