Monday, April 21, 2008
Les Mots Justes
Robert Cleave, last night's game thread:
Stars Guy james t o'brien, basking in the post-victory glow:
I love the hockeysphere.
I likely saw the Flames 25 or so times this year, and I don't remember them having so little to do in a third period to hold a lead against an allegedly competent team. Maybe one of the woohooing types can amplify, but my sense is they normally exhibit the late game defensive zone composure of Kevin Bacon at the end of Animal House.
Stars Guy james t o'brien, basking in the post-victory glow:
I think I've stumbled on a solid nickname for Brad Richards: the $5 shake. As you may remember from "Pulp Fiction," Mia Wallace (Uma Thurman) orders the questionably priced shake and John Travolta is understandably skeptical. Although no shake could be worth $5, Travolta ultimately admitted that it was a "damn good shake." But not worth $5.
I love the hockeysphere.
# posted by Matt @ 7:18 am 
Comments:
Matt, I'm in Vancouver on a company sponsored Instructional Methods course, and my knowledge presentation last week was why the MSM isn't good enough by itself, and what the blogosphere has added to my enjoyment and understanding of the game. I namechecked you guys, so seeing my little snark on the front page this morning elicited some comment. Of course, no one remembered the Animal House scene(Philistines!), but the timing was still serendipitous.
Oh man. If there's any justice that $5 Shake thing will stick to Richards like chewing gum under a desk.
If Brad Richards is the $5 shake, what the heck do we call Bobby Holik?
Continuing the metaphor, does that make Bryan McCabe into Marvin, the guy who gets his brains blown out by Travolta?
After that 5-0 loss, I doubt it. It was nice to see that story today, though. I'm glad he wrote about Habs fans storming the Fleet. That was wrong on so many levels.
Alright now, if we all close our eyes and think REALLY hard about it, someone in the MSM will pick up Richards' new name and Pierre will be man loving it by next week.
I'm glad he wrote about Habs fans storming the Fleet. That was wrong on so many levels.
On the other hand, they spent most of the night storming half of downtown Montreal, so maybe it's just what they do.
Habs fans: breaking shit and pissing off the cops, win or lose, since 1955.
I guess they felt the need to up the ante after the Red Mile and Whyte Ave were such hits.
Soooo Phaneuf is a Norris candidate. Looks like the NHL sees something all the Oiler fans don't.
Can you imagine the looking down the nose and the stories we would be hearing from the eastern media if the riots happened in the dirtiest, remote, nobody wants to live in city of Stabmonton?
Also nobody has comented on the booing of the US national anthem last night. I'm sooooo surprised that would happen in the tolerant province of Quebec.
I guess they felt the need to up the ante after the Red Mile and Whyte Ave were such hits.
More like showing us how it's done.
Say what you will about Habs fans: at least they know that a riot isn't a riot until a cop car gets torched. A pile of pallets and shopping carts is a poor substitute.
given that last night's "festivities" likely occurred in both official languages, it is considered a "cultural celebration" and not a riot.
Soooo Phaneuf is a Norris candidate. Looks like the NHL sees something all the Oiler fans don't.
Yeah, apparently they see something other than reality, that Phaneuf is consistently his coach's choice (i.e. at home, with last change) to take on the other team's top forward line.
Anyone who watched game six saw that Regehr was out against Thornton's line the majority of the time. Phaneuf was playing with Eriksson and appeared to be hard matched against....Mike Grier?
Phaneuf getting a Norris nomination is a fucking attrocity. It is 100% undeserved - he's not even the best defenseman on his team. However, he is now something else with this nomination - he is officially the most overrated player in the National Hockey League. Hype, not actual substance. This one is on par with Brind'Amour winning the Selke last year. In fact, it might be worse, if not for the fact that Dion has no chance of actually winning the thing (Lidstrom's taking it home for the sixth time - BOOK IT).
There is no logical argument that Phaneuf would get a nomination over Andrei Markov, Sergei Gonchar or *spits* Chris Pronger. And if some Flame fans (and, apparently, a large chunk of the voting media) are too stupid to see this - God help 'em.
I think we've known for years that there's a large segment of the Eastern media that gets all its information on the Western Conference from TSN and actual western reporters. They probably filled the ballot box for MONSTER Dion Phaneuf. After all, they were told he's good and they keep getting bitched at for eastern bias...
Which also explains why Chris Pronger, who is twice as huge a cock and twice as good a defenseman, was left off the ballot. In fact, I don't believe he's been a Norris finalist since he won that Hart trophy despite, when healthy, consistently being the second-best defenseman in the game GOD I HATE MYSELF FOR TYPING THAT.
bob,
you know as well as i do that if chris showed up in town with an oiler jersey on. oiler fans would trip over each other thanking him for his return. the only reason the fans hate him so much was because he was so damn good.
the only reason the fans hate him so much was because he was so damn good.
I dunno. We hate Mike Comrie a lot too. But there's no denying that when a really good player stabs you in the back, it hurts more than if Allan Rourke demands a trade.
I'd really like to hear from matt and metrognome on this Phaneuf nomination.
I am pretty sure that, despite their allegiances to the "dark side", they're more than sharp enough to realize that the Phaneuf Norris nomination is, in short, a crock of shit.
This is not about Phaneuf being a jerk or how he plays on the ice. Pronger's a jerk too - but you know what? He's the 2nd best defenseman in hockey.
Three, four years from now, MAYBE Phaneuf justifies a Norris nomination. In fact, I wouldn't bet against it. Right now though? It's a farce.
I dunno. We hate Mike Comrie a lot too. But there's no denying that when a really good player stabs you in the back, it hurts more than if Allan Rourke demands a trade.
somehow i think the fact that half of albertans owe comrie's dad money on some "buy a crappy couch now and pay for it after you've thrown it out" scam has more to do with the comrie hate than anything else. oiler fans don't hate comrie, it's the silver spoon located between his lips.
Im encouraged by The Phaneuf Norris nomination only as much as it's a sign that Dion is taking steps towards becoming a legitimately great defender in the near future.
To be clearer: I dont see it as preposterous this year as those suggestions of Norris nominations have been in years past. There were certainly sections of the regular season where Phaneuf actually looked like he was the best defenseman on the team. They were transient, sure, but perceptible.
Of course, there are certainly still holes in his game, particularly in the defensive zone. He can't reliably shut-down the big boys and his PKing leaves something to be desired, for example.
He can't reliably shut-down the big boys and his PKing leaves something to be desired, for example.
Maybe I'm a purist, but considering he's a defenseman, shouldn't he be relatively solid in his own zone against the best to be considered among the elite defensemen in the game and worthy of a Norris nod?
I do think the nomination is preposterous based on this fact. Now considering that they give out an award for best defensive forward, maybe they need an award for offensive defensemen (call it the Bobby Orr trophy or something), allow Phaneuf to contend for that right now, and leave the Norris nominations for the truly all-around elite defenders like Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara, Zubov, etc?
Dion Phaneuf isn't one of the three best all-around d-men in the NHL. I don't even know if he'd make my top ten. Hell, I don't even think he's the best one on his team as of yet (partially due to the fact that Regehr is only modest offensively but so kickass in his own zone against the very best).
Phaneuf getting a Norris nomination is a fucking attrocity. It is 100% undeserved - he's not even the best defenseman on his team.
Not saying that I disagree with you about the nomination being unwarranted, but is there some bit of analysis out there to suggest that it is more than that? To say that it is a "fucking farce" seems a bit severe. I don't doubt that most of Phaneuf's supporters are also Flames fans, but his most vocal detractors (in my experience) also seem to be Oilers fans. So while it is fair to ask for objective justification for the nomination, I also think it is fair to ask why this would be considered so outlandish in comparison to other possible nominees (maybe with the exception of Pronger).
I'd say Phaneuf is borderline. It doesn't matter, because Lidstrom is winning the thing unanimously. (Remember that dubbing the top 3 vote-getters as the "nominees" is pretty arbitrary; for all we know, when the numbers are released on June 13, 3rd to 8th could be a virtual tie.)
If he hadn't had a rotten November (or so), I'd be 100% behind it. And for all you want to bang on his imperfectness in his own end, the guy is a *serious* threat going north. The first 2 games of this playoff series, you could pretty much hear the Tank fans hold their collective breath when he got the puck at the point with a few feet of space.
There were certainly sections of the regular season where Phaneuf actually looked like he was the best defenseman on the team.
Ladies and gentlemen, the man who is no worse than the third-best defenseman in the National Hockey League!
Matt said...
I'd say Phaneuf is borderline.
So right now, you'd say Pronger vs. Phaneuf is a tough call?
I'm sorry Matt, but that's fucking crazy.
Phaneuf has the better ES totals but Pronger's playing the top pairing min on his team and he still manages to be massively low event at ES. He's obviously the better PKer and his PP rates are better than Phaneuf's.
Pronger has two problems:
His team sucked when he was the man
He (again) shamed himself, and missed a bunch of games, because of his temper
I've given him plenty of respect over the months and years, though.
Phaneuf has the better ES totals but Pronger's playing the top pairing min on his team and he still manages to be massively low event at ES. He's obviously the better PKer and his PP rates are better than Phaneuf's.
I'd love to see someone (Riv, mudcrutch, anyone who's got the ability to do so) look at Phaneuf's overall body of work (ES/PP/PK) against some of the other top-end guys who didn't get a top three Norris nomination (Gonchar, Markov and Pronger being the three most obvious from where I sit).
I had this discussion with a buddy last night - I'm not even sure Phaneuf is a top-10 defenseman in the league as of yet, let alone top three. I watch guys like Shea Weber and Braydon Coburn, two of Phaneuf's 2003 draft classmates, and I see guys who aren't putting up the flashy counting stats but are perhaps ahead of him in other areas of the game.
A defenseman's primary objective is playing defense. You have to put up pretty flashy counting stats (i.e. Paul Coffey territory) to overcome the deficiencies I see in Phaneuf's own zone game right now to the point where you can justify a Norris nomination.
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Matt, I'm in Vancouver on a company sponsored Instructional Methods course, and my knowledge presentation last week was why the MSM isn't good enough by itself, and what the blogosphere has added to my enjoyment and understanding of the game. I namechecked you guys, so seeing my little snark on the front page this morning elicited some comment. Of course, no one remembered the Animal House scene(Philistines!), but the timing was still serendipitous.
Oh man. If there's any justice that $5 Shake thing will stick to Richards like chewing gum under a desk.
If Brad Richards is the $5 shake, what the heck do we call Bobby Holik?
# posted by 
: April 21, 2008 2:20 pm
: April 21, 2008 2:20 pm Continuing the metaphor, does that make Bryan McCabe into Marvin, the guy who gets his brains blown out by Travolta?
After that 5-0 loss, I doubt it. It was nice to see that story today, though. I'm glad he wrote about Habs fans storming the Fleet. That was wrong on so many levels.
Alright now, if we all close our eyes and think REALLY hard about it, someone in the MSM will pick up Richards' new name and Pierre will be man loving it by next week.
I'm glad he wrote about Habs fans storming the Fleet. That was wrong on so many levels.
On the other hand, they spent most of the night storming half of downtown Montreal, so maybe it's just what they do.
Habs fans: breaking shit and pissing off the cops, win or lose, since 1955.
I guess they felt the need to up the ante after the Red Mile and Whyte Ave were such hits.
Soooo Phaneuf is a Norris candidate. Looks like the NHL sees something all the Oiler fans don't.
# posted by : April 22, 2008 11:38 am
: April 22, 2008 11:38 am Can you imagine the looking down the nose and the stories we would be hearing from the eastern media if the riots happened in the dirtiest, remote, nobody wants to live in city of Stabmonton?
Also nobody has comented on the booing of the US national anthem last night. I'm sooooo surprised that would happen in the tolerant province of Quebec.
# posted by : April 22, 2008 11:40 am
: April 22, 2008 11:40 am I guess they felt the need to up the ante after the Red Mile and Whyte Ave were such hits.
More like showing us how it's done.
Say what you will about Habs fans: at least they know that a riot isn't a riot until a cop car gets torched. A pile of pallets and shopping carts is a poor substitute.
given that last night's "festivities" likely occurred in both official languages, it is considered a "cultural celebration" and not a riot.
Soooo Phaneuf is a Norris candidate. Looks like the NHL sees something all the Oiler fans don't.
Yeah, apparently they see something other than reality, that Phaneuf is consistently his coach's choice (i.e. at home, with last change) to take on the other team's top forward line.
Anyone who watched game six saw that Regehr was out against Thornton's line the majority of the time. Phaneuf was playing with Eriksson and appeared to be hard matched against....Mike Grier?
Phaneuf getting a Norris nomination is a fucking attrocity. It is 100% undeserved - he's not even the best defenseman on his team. However, he is now something else with this nomination - he is officially the most overrated player in the National Hockey League. Hype, not actual substance. This one is on par with Brind'Amour winning the Selke last year. In fact, it might be worse, if not for the fact that Dion has no chance of actually winning the thing (Lidstrom's taking it home for the sixth time - BOOK IT).
There is no logical argument that Phaneuf would get a nomination over Andrei Markov, Sergei Gonchar or *spits* Chris Pronger. And if some Flame fans (and, apparently, a large chunk of the voting media) are too stupid to see this - God help 'em.
I think we've known for years that there's a large segment of the Eastern media that gets all its information on the Western Conference from TSN and actual western reporters. They probably filled the ballot box for MONSTER Dion Phaneuf. After all, they were told he's good and they keep getting bitched at for eastern bias...
Which also explains why Chris Pronger, who is twice as huge a cock and twice as good a defenseman, was left off the ballot. In fact, I don't believe he's been a Norris finalist since he won that Hart trophy despite, when healthy, consistently being the second-best defenseman in the game GOD I HATE MYSELF FOR TYPING THAT.
bob,
you know as well as i do that if chris showed up in town with an oiler jersey on. oiler fans would trip over each other thanking him for his return. the only reason the fans hate him so much was because he was so damn good.
the only reason the fans hate him so much was because he was so damn good.
I dunno. We hate Mike Comrie a lot too. But there's no denying that when a really good player stabs you in the back, it hurts more than if Allan Rourke demands a trade.
I'd really like to hear from matt and metrognome on this Phaneuf nomination.
I am pretty sure that, despite their allegiances to the "dark side", they're more than sharp enough to realize that the Phaneuf Norris nomination is, in short, a crock of shit.
This is not about Phaneuf being a jerk or how he plays on the ice. Pronger's a jerk too - but you know what? He's the 2nd best defenseman in hockey.
Three, four years from now, MAYBE Phaneuf justifies a Norris nomination. In fact, I wouldn't bet against it. Right now though? It's a farce.
I dunno. We hate Mike Comrie a lot too. But there's no denying that when a really good player stabs you in the back, it hurts more than if Allan Rourke demands a trade.
somehow i think the fact that half of albertans owe comrie's dad money on some "buy a crappy couch now and pay for it after you've thrown it out" scam has more to do with the comrie hate than anything else. oiler fans don't hate comrie, it's the silver spoon located between his lips.
Im encouraged by The Phaneuf Norris nomination only as much as it's a sign that Dion is taking steps towards becoming a legitimately great defender in the near future.
To be clearer: I dont see it as preposterous this year as those suggestions of Norris nominations have been in years past. There were certainly sections of the regular season where Phaneuf actually looked like he was the best defenseman on the team. They were transient, sure, but perceptible.
Of course, there are certainly still holes in his game, particularly in the defensive zone. He can't reliably shut-down the big boys and his PKing leaves something to be desired, for example.
He can't reliably shut-down the big boys and his PKing leaves something to be desired, for example.
Maybe I'm a purist, but considering he's a defenseman, shouldn't he be relatively solid in his own zone against the best to be considered among the elite defensemen in the game and worthy of a Norris nod?
I do think the nomination is preposterous based on this fact. Now considering that they give out an award for best defensive forward, maybe they need an award for offensive defensemen (call it the Bobby Orr trophy or something), allow Phaneuf to contend for that right now, and leave the Norris nominations for the truly all-around elite defenders like Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara, Zubov, etc?
Dion Phaneuf isn't one of the three best all-around d-men in the NHL. I don't even know if he'd make my top ten. Hell, I don't even think he's the best one on his team as of yet (partially due to the fact that Regehr is only modest offensively but so kickass in his own zone against the very best).
Phaneuf getting a Norris nomination is a fucking attrocity. It is 100% undeserved - he's not even the best defenseman on his team.
Not saying that I disagree with you about the nomination being unwarranted, but is there some bit of analysis out there to suggest that it is more than that? To say that it is a "fucking farce" seems a bit severe. I don't doubt that most of Phaneuf's supporters are also Flames fans, but his most vocal detractors (in my experience) also seem to be Oilers fans. So while it is fair to ask for objective justification for the nomination, I also think it is fair to ask why this would be considered so outlandish in comparison to other possible nominees (maybe with the exception of Pronger).
I'd say Phaneuf is borderline. It doesn't matter, because Lidstrom is winning the thing unanimously. (Remember that dubbing the top 3 vote-getters as the "nominees" is pretty arbitrary; for all we know, when the numbers are released on June 13, 3rd to 8th could be a virtual tie.)
If he hadn't had a rotten November (or so), I'd be 100% behind it. And for all you want to bang on his imperfectness in his own end, the guy is a *serious* threat going north. The first 2 games of this playoff series, you could pretty much hear the Tank fans hold their collective breath when he got the puck at the point with a few feet of space.
There were certainly sections of the regular season where Phaneuf actually looked like he was the best defenseman on the team.
Ladies and gentlemen, the man who is no worse than the third-best defenseman in the National Hockey League!
Matt said...
I'd say Phaneuf is borderline.
So right now, you'd say Pronger vs. Phaneuf is a tough call?
I'm sorry Matt, but that's fucking crazy.
Phaneuf has the better ES totals but Pronger's playing the top pairing min on his team and he still manages to be massively low event at ES. He's obviously the better PKer and his PP rates are better than Phaneuf's.
Pronger has two problems:
His team sucked when he was the man
He (again) shamed himself, and missed a bunch of games, because of his temper
I've given him plenty of respect over the months and years, though.
Phaneuf has the better ES totals but Pronger's playing the top pairing min on his team and he still manages to be massively low event at ES. He's obviously the better PKer and his PP rates are better than Phaneuf's.
I'd love to see someone (Riv, mudcrutch, anyone who's got the ability to do so) look at Phaneuf's overall body of work (ES/PP/PK) against some of the other top-end guys who didn't get a top three Norris nomination (Gonchar, Markov and Pronger being the three most obvious from where I sit).
I had this discussion with a buddy last night - I'm not even sure Phaneuf is a top-10 defenseman in the league as of yet, let alone top three. I watch guys like Shea Weber and Braydon Coburn, two of Phaneuf's 2003 draft classmates, and I see guys who aren't putting up the flashy counting stats but are perhaps ahead of him in other areas of the game.
A defenseman's primary objective is playing defense. You have to put up pretty flashy counting stats (i.e. Paul Coffey territory) to overcome the deficiencies I see in Phaneuf's own zone game right now to the point where you can justify a Norris nomination.
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