Sunday, April 13, 2008
Sean Avery screens Martin Brodeur
Penalty? Acceptable? I'm still undecided, but leaning more towards thinking it should be a penalty. It's the glove and stick waving that bothers me. Turning your back to the puck is stupid, but I don't think it should be illegal. The Devils were down two men at that point, which explains why someone didn't just push Avery out of the way (or worse). If you are Martin Brodeur or a Devils fan, the worst part is that Avery scored moments afterwards. The TSN panel discuss here. They also discussed it on Hockey Night in Canada--with Ron MacLean saying it had no place in hockey. Thoughts?
# posted by andy grabia @ 9:42 pm 
Comments:
If your own player tells you to fuck off while the game is in play, as Drury did, then you're a fucking tool.
Does Jersey have anyone on the roster who can goon that punk?
Unsportsmanlike conduct with a 10 minute misconduct.
That's odd, bruce. I always considered his ilk members of Homo habilis, the dumb cousin of Homo sapiens. Other notable members include the likes of Donald Brashear, Matt Cooke, and our own Raffi Torres. Overdeveloped musculature in arms and tongue area, underdeveloped important thinking muscle.
Ron MacLean thought Gordie Howe was a good player who celebrated a little too much..
Seriously, when did Ron effin' MacLean become the arbiter of what is or isn't good for hockey?
Andy:
I like Ron Maclean's argument best. And his back is to the play, making it also dangerous for his teammates looking to shoot the puck.
I further strengthen my mindset as to why I hate it because of the way most of his team thought of his actions. One of the team's leaders in Drury spoke to him while play was going on, and it seemed like only two people on the bench were congratulating him on his goal afterwards.
Bettman said after the Flames game that they will be looking into the situation, and will probably address any similar situations during the playoffs, but not without mentioning it to every team beforehand. Which I like. It's taking an active step to clean up tonight's actions.
One of the team's leaders in Drury spoke to him while play was going on, and it seemed like only two people on the bench were congratulating him on his goal afterwards.
But you have no idea what was said, do you? I haven't seen anything anywhere about what Drury actually said.
Andy:
Yeah. That's true. I'm merely speculating at this point, but I will go out on a limb and assume Drury, a good clean hockey player, wouldn't want that shit on his rink.
But you have no idea what was said, do you? I haven't seen anything anywhere about what Drury actually said.
NHL Network just showed a close-up, lip readable clip of Drury saying "stick down" to Avery. He definitely wasn't chastising him.
OK, so a guy who screens the opposing goalie with his ass is a warrior, but a guy who distracts him by maniacally waiving his arms and stick is a tool?
When did we lose sight of the fact that you win by scoring more often than the opposition?
By the time the playoffs are over, the only thing left to decide for Avery is whether the first number on his next contract is a 5 or a 6, followed by 6 zeros. And anybody who says they wouldn't have him on their favorite team is either a liar, self-deluded, or determined to cheer for a losing team.
I'm not an Avery fan I think in general he's a tool. That being said I don't have a problem with the face to face screen.
My problem lies with the waving the stick in Brodeur's face. Aside from looking like a classless fool, it was a borderline misconduct as MacLean said and potentially exposed the D and Brodeur to taking a high stick.
IMO if Avery feels he can better obscure the goalies vision facing him then that's his choice. It's clear it's probably easier to obscure the goalies vision but I think in the end it's probably not as effective as the traditional screen because of his inability to effectively tip the puck.
So if he feels comfortable enough to expose his back to the play then that's his choice.
And anybody who says they wouldn't have him on their favorite team is either a liar, self-deluded, or determined to cheer for a losing team.
Or a communist. You forgot that one.
I have to go with game misconduct on this one. The rule Maclean showed makes it pretty clear what the standard is. I can understand facing the goalie, with the idea being to better block his vision. But the combination of facing the goalie AND having his stick up in the air makes it clear that Avery had no intention of being involved in the play. His intent was only to aggravate Brodeur.
I also have to take into account the fact that Avery is a goon. Were a skill player, say Chris Pronger, to do the same thing, I'd have to call the interference on Brodeur.
What rule did MacLean use? I only saw this one on TSN, and the only things MacKenzie could suggest were two for USC or a ten-minute misconduct for "inciting." My thinking, and I hate to say this, is like Anonymouse's here:
OK, so a guy who screens the opposing goalie with his ass is a warrior, but a guy who distracts him by maniacally waiving his arms and stick is a tool?
When did we lose sight of the fact that you win by scoring more often than the opposition?
It's like the hockey version of that classic children's game, I'm Not Touching You, Not Touching You, Not Touching You, MOOOO-OOOOM! I'm not saying that's a good thing in and of itself, but it strikes me that Marty needs to put on his big-girl panties and deal with it. His whiny-bitch tendencies already killed a perfectly cool concept in the mirrored visor, and this seems like another effort to get rid of something he doesn't like and cover for the fact that he's been kinda shitty this playoff. I mean, sure, Avery is, by nature, a toolbag, but I don't have any problem with him trying to distract Brodeur by any means possible. Isn't that his job?
1) We're NOT Avery fans, but as long as his stick doesn't come in contact with anyone AND he's outside the crease it should NOT be disallowed.
2) Allow defensemen to "clear the crease" as they did before the 'new NHL" and you'll see a bit less of that without any silly new rules.
I think on its face you can't really call it anything more than jackassery. There's no obvious reason to tell Avery to piss off, but if someone from the front office gave him a call and told him to knock it off, I they'd be well advised.
The minor things that make it into an actionable item for me are basically:
1. He has his stick off the ice and is barely involved in the actual hockey. Let's just make all hockey 4 on 4, but stick the pillar from section 317 Row 28 in front of the goalies. Same difference.
2. It is a bit dangerous, given that you're turned around.
3. It just looks idiotic. And if Unsportsmanlike Conducts can be handed out for Hemsky bitching about the ice, I don't see much issue giving one for this.
I also have to take into account the fact that Avery is a goon. Were a skill player, say Chris Pronger, to do the same thing, I'd have to call the interference on Brodeur.
Bravo. Nicely done.
I don't know if anyone here remebers Wayne Cowley (former Oilers farm goalie), but he used to do basically the same thing to the forechecker if his own d-man had the puck behind the net. He'd wave his glove hand in the forwards face to try and distract him from seeing which side of the net the puck was going to come out from. The home crowd loved it - opposing bench and players hated it. The only problem, like the Avery thing, was that Cowley was not looking at the puck either. If Avery takes a slapshot in the spine, I doubt he'll do it anymore:o)
I'm with Doogie. Probably a groupthink thing but still. What's the big deal?
Probably a groupthink thing but still.
Yeah, I had that coming. At least now I know I'm not totally crazy.
Is there any way to call high-sticking if the stick does not in fact touch a player? The stick is a danger to other players being up there.
That fucker pulls shit like that around my crease, he's getting the pointy end of the big paddle right in the junk. As often as it takes.
Give the guy credit for creativity. In current rules, there was no penalty that this action fits under. For Ranger fans, it was incredibly funny. For those who despise Avery, just another reason to hate him. If not for the fluke goal in OT (even John Madden admitted that was an incredibly lucky and much needed break for them), this could have spelled the end for the Devils. Avery is making his mark on the NHL. And with 3 goals in the 3 playoff games, I am pretty sure even Glen Sather wouldn't call him a detriment to the team right now. He's making people want to watch that franchise to see what he will do next. I guarantee it will involve something within the rules (albeit obnoxious) AND will also involve more points on the board for the blueshirts.
I also have to take into account the fact that Avery is a goon. Were a skill player, say Chris Pronger, to do the same thing, I'd have to call the interference on Brodeur.
Goon? Lets look at some stats here Pronger in 72 games had 12 goals 31 assist and 128 PIM. Avery in 57 games had 15 goals 18 assist and 154 PIM. So in 15 less games he his stats are relatively comparable to Pronger’s. So by your own definition, Pronger is a goon, or Avery is a skilled player. Its funny how nobody mentions the three real penalties that happened on that play… a cross-check, a stick swat between the legs and a punch to the face, all happened to Avery.
NHL officiating body has altered the "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty to include Avery's actions yesterday.
As per TSN.
What part of his actions?
The waving the stick in the face, the hand, or facing the goaltender?
The only action I really feel is borderline unsportsmanlike is the stick waving near the mask.
"Inciting the opponet to draw a penalty" is such a general description.
Couldn't OV's hot dogging after goals be considered "inciting the opponent"?
I just wish that Broduer would have had a Ron Hextall / Billy Smith moment and gave him the treatment the idiot deserves. Although one could argue that the goalie is then no better than Avery is and should take the 'high road'.
Good on the NHL for taking immediate action to this.
I agree that Avery's little act should be an USC penalty, but it seems most of the negative reaction is based on some sort of emotional response, like "avery's a punk/goon/idiot, you know what i'd do?!? i'd (insert adjective + verb) that ....". Other than the negative optics of the situation, the worst/most dangerous aspect of his act was his own personal safety (not much padding at all on the back of body parts). Marty's got a full helmet (its like hes specifically equipped to get hit with things! and avery didn't even touch him), so saying they should stop it for his safety is a little hypocritical, considering how much importance (right or wrong) is placed on D and fwd "sacrificing the body" and blocking shots (cringe best wishes, thor /cringe).
I mean, its PRO hockey. it'd be great if they were all, i dunno... Pisani's (classy, respectable), but there's way too much money involved, owners/gms/coaches don't care if they ever talk to them away from the rink, just if they consistently win games.
While I'm here:
doogie +1; i'm sure he's a db pretty much 24/7, too.
doogie -1; "a perfectly cool concept in the mirrored visor" Wha??? ummm, no. just no.
I do see it as a safety issue. It's tough enough to play goal without a goddam blindfold. A screen shot is one thing, but somebody interfering directly with your vision is something else. And it's unsportsmanlike.
In football it's called faceguarding, and if the pass defender does it to the receiver it's pass interference unless he's actually looking for the ball. And it's not like the guy who's vision is being obstructed is about to be hit with a 100 m.p.h. slapshot.
It speaks to Avery's character that I find myself whole-heartedly in Gary F. Bettman's corner on this issue.
Avery's an idiot, he gave himself no chance to score giving the devils a one player disadvantage instead of two. With his back turned to the action he couldnt have contributed had a rebound come off, and he was lucky that one of his teammates' shots didnt hit him in his ass (brain). Also wasn't he doing as much to defend the net as brodeur, as he was not just shielding brodeur but the goal. One thing can be said about how brave (fuckin stupid) he is for turning his back to slapshot after slapshot, like he was doing a stunt on JACKASS or something. Stevo would have been proud!
I wouldn't have Avery on my team. It may indeed be irrational but while I can fully admit he does his job out there, and without much in the way of sacrificing skill, I would rather my GM put money into someone else who can do a similar job and still make me proud out there.
Didn't we once do lists of players we didn't want to play for the Oil? He's tops on mine.
btw: I have no problems with the face to face part of it (aside from it seeming stupid for a - his own safety and b - his innability to contribute to any play being made) but the stick/hand waving thing goes too far. Did he stick out his tongue as well?
My favorite response was Carey Price. When asked about it the rookie goal tender said "No, I've never seen anything like that. Maybe in Adam or Peewee but not at this level."
Avery's a douche.
（法新社倫敦四日電） 英國情色大亨芮孟的公司a片昨天a片下載說，芮孟日前去世，享壽八十二歲；這位身價上億的房地產開發商，曾經在倫敦av女優推出第一情色視訊場成人影片脫衣舞表演。色情
av情色電影
情色
芮孟的av女優財產av估計達六億五千萬英鎊（台幣將近四百億），由日本av於他名下事業大多分布在倫敦夜生活區蘇活區，因色情影片此成人擁有「蘇活之王」的稱號。成人網站
他的公司「保羅芮情色孟集團」旗下發行部落格多種情色雜誌，包成人網站括「Razzle」、「男性世界」以及「Ma部落格yfair」。
芮孟成人電影本名傑福瑞a片．安東尼．奎恩，父親為搬成人光碟運承包商。成人影片芮孟十五成人網站歲離開學av女優校，矢言要在表成人演事業留名，起先表演讀成人影片心術，後來成為巡迴av歌舞雜耍表sex演的製a片作人。
許多評論家認為，他把情色表演帶進主流社會a片，一九五九年主持破天荒的脫衣舞表演情色電影，後來更AV片靠著在蘇avdvd活區與倫部落格敦西區開發房成人電影地產賺得色情a片大筆財富。
色情
有人形容芮孟av是英a片下載國的海夫色情納，地位等同美國的「花花公子」創辦人海夫納。
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If your own player tells you to fuck off while the game is in play, as Drury did, then you're a fucking tool.
Does Jersey have anyone on the roster who can goon that punk?
Unsportsmanlike conduct with a 10 minute misconduct.
That's odd, bruce. I always considered his ilk members of Homo habilis, the dumb cousin of Homo sapiens. Other notable members include the likes of Donald Brashear, Matt Cooke, and our own Raffi Torres. Overdeveloped musculature in arms and tongue area, underdeveloped important thinking muscle.
Ron MacLean thought Gordie Howe was a good player who celebrated a little too much..
Seriously, when did Ron effin' MacLean become the arbiter of what is or isn't good for hockey?
# posted by 
: April 13, 2008 11:49 pm
: April 13, 2008 11:49 pm Andy:
I like Ron Maclean's argument best. And his back is to the play, making it also dangerous for his teammates looking to shoot the puck.
I further strengthen my mindset as to why I hate it because of the way most of his team thought of his actions. One of the team's leaders in Drury spoke to him while play was going on, and it seemed like only two people on the bench were congratulating him on his goal afterwards.
Bettman said after the Flames game that they will be looking into the situation, and will probably address any similar situations during the playoffs, but not without mentioning it to every team beforehand. Which I like. It's taking an active step to clean up tonight's actions.
One of the team's leaders in Drury spoke to him while play was going on, and it seemed like only two people on the bench were congratulating him on his goal afterwards.
But you have no idea what was said, do you? I haven't seen anything anywhere about what Drury actually said.
Andy:
Yeah. That's true. I'm merely speculating at this point, but I will go out on a limb and assume Drury, a good clean hockey player, wouldn't want that shit on his rink.
But you have no idea what was said, do you? I haven't seen anything anywhere about what Drury actually said.
NHL Network just showed a close-up, lip readable clip of Drury saying "stick down" to Avery. He definitely wasn't chastising him.
OK, so a guy who screens the opposing goalie with his ass is a warrior, but a guy who distracts him by maniacally waiving his arms and stick is a tool?
When did we lose sight of the fact that you win by scoring more often than the opposition?
By the time the playoffs are over, the only thing left to decide for Avery is whether the first number on his next contract is a 5 or a 6, followed by 6 zeros. And anybody who says they wouldn't have him on their favorite team is either a liar, self-deluded, or determined to cheer for a losing team.
# posted by : April 14, 2008 12:25 am
: April 14, 2008 12:25 am I'm not an Avery fan I think in general he's a tool. That being said I don't have a problem with the face to face screen.
My problem lies with the waving the stick in Brodeur's face. Aside from looking like a classless fool, it was a borderline misconduct as MacLean said and potentially exposed the D and Brodeur to taking a high stick.
IMO if Avery feels he can better obscure the goalies vision facing him then that's his choice. It's clear it's probably easier to obscure the goalies vision but I think in the end it's probably not as effective as the traditional screen because of his inability to effectively tip the puck.
So if he feels comfortable enough to expose his back to the play then that's his choice.
And anybody who says they wouldn't have him on their favorite team is either a liar, self-deluded, or determined to cheer for a losing team.
Or a communist. You forgot that one.
I have to go with game misconduct on this one. The rule Maclean showed makes it pretty clear what the standard is. I can understand facing the goalie, with the idea being to better block his vision. But the combination of facing the goalie AND having his stick up in the air makes it clear that Avery had no intention of being involved in the play. His intent was only to aggravate Brodeur.
I also have to take into account the fact that Avery is a goon. Were a skill player, say Chris Pronger, to do the same thing, I'd have to call the interference on Brodeur.
What rule did MacLean use? I only saw this one on TSN, and the only things MacKenzie could suggest were two for USC or a ten-minute misconduct for "inciting." My thinking, and I hate to say this, is like Anonymouse's here:
OK, so a guy who screens the opposing goalie with his ass is a warrior, but a guy who distracts him by maniacally waiving his arms and stick is a tool?
When did we lose sight of the fact that you win by scoring more often than the opposition?
It's like the hockey version of that classic children's game, I'm Not Touching You, Not Touching You, Not Touching You, MOOOO-OOOOM! I'm not saying that's a good thing in and of itself, but it strikes me that Marty needs to put on his big-girl panties and deal with it. His whiny-bitch tendencies already killed a perfectly cool concept in the mirrored visor, and this seems like another effort to get rid of something he doesn't like and cover for the fact that he's been kinda shitty this playoff. I mean, sure, Avery is, by nature, a toolbag, but I don't have any problem with him trying to distract Brodeur by any means possible. Isn't that his job?
1) We're NOT Avery fans, but as long as his stick doesn't come in contact with anyone AND he's outside the crease it should NOT be disallowed.
2) Allow defensemen to "clear the crease" as they did before the 'new NHL" and you'll see a bit less of that without any silly new rules.
I think on its face you can't really call it anything more than jackassery. There's no obvious reason to tell Avery to piss off, but if someone from the front office gave him a call and told him to knock it off, I they'd be well advised.
The minor things that make it into an actionable item for me are basically:
1. He has his stick off the ice and is barely involved in the actual hockey. Let's just make all hockey 4 on 4, but stick the pillar from section 317 Row 28 in front of the goalies. Same difference.
2. It is a bit dangerous, given that you're turned around.
3. It just looks idiotic. And if Unsportsmanlike Conducts can be handed out for Hemsky bitching about the ice, I don't see much issue giving one for this.
I also have to take into account the fact that Avery is a goon. Were a skill player, say Chris Pronger, to do the same thing, I'd have to call the interference on Brodeur.
Bravo. Nicely done.
I don't know if anyone here remebers Wayne Cowley (former Oilers farm goalie), but he used to do basically the same thing to the forechecker if his own d-man had the puck behind the net. He'd wave his glove hand in the forwards face to try and distract him from seeing which side of the net the puck was going to come out from. The home crowd loved it - opposing bench and players hated it. The only problem, like the Avery thing, was that Cowley was not looking at the puck either. If Avery takes a slapshot in the spine, I doubt he'll do it anymore:o)
I'm with Doogie. Probably a groupthink thing but still. What's the big deal?
# posted by : April 14, 2008 9:34 am
: April 14, 2008 9:34 am Probably a groupthink thing but still.
Yeah, I had that coming. At least now I know I'm not totally crazy.
Is there any way to call high-sticking if the stick does not in fact touch a player? The stick is a danger to other players being up there.
That fucker pulls shit like that around my crease, he's getting the pointy end of the big paddle right in the junk. As often as it takes.
Give the guy credit for creativity. In current rules, there was no penalty that this action fits under. For Ranger fans, it was incredibly funny. For those who despise Avery, just another reason to hate him. If not for the fluke goal in OT (even John Madden admitted that was an incredibly lucky and much needed break for them), this could have spelled the end for the Devils. Avery is making his mark on the NHL. And with 3 goals in the 3 playoff games, I am pretty sure even Glen Sather wouldn't call him a detriment to the team right now. He's making people want to watch that franchise to see what he will do next. I guarantee it will involve something within the rules (albeit obnoxious) AND will also involve more points on the board for the blueshirts.
# posted by : April 14, 2008 12:02 pm
: April 14, 2008 12:02 pm I also have to take into account the fact that Avery is a goon. Were a skill player, say Chris Pronger, to do the same thing, I'd have to call the interference on Brodeur.
Goon? Lets look at some stats here Pronger in 72 games had 12 goals 31 assist and 128 PIM. Avery in 57 games had 15 goals 18 assist and 154 PIM. So in 15 less games he his stats are relatively comparable to Pronger’s. So by your own definition, Pronger is a goon, or Avery is a skilled player. Its funny how nobody mentions the three real penalties that happened on that play… a cross-check, a stick swat between the legs and a punch to the face, all happened to Avery.
# posted by : April 14, 2008 12:41 pm
: April 14, 2008 12:41 pm NHL officiating body has altered the "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalty to include Avery's actions yesterday.
As per TSN.
What part of his actions?
The waving the stick in the face, the hand, or facing the goaltender?
The only action I really feel is borderline unsportsmanlike is the stick waving near the mask.
"Inciting the opponet to draw a penalty" is such a general description.
Couldn't OV's hot dogging after goals be considered "inciting the opponent"?
I just wish that Broduer would have had a Ron Hextall / Billy Smith moment and gave him the treatment the idiot deserves. Although one could argue that the goalie is then no better than Avery is and should take the 'high road'.
Good on the NHL for taking immediate action to this.
I agree that Avery's little act should be an USC penalty, but it seems most of the negative reaction is based on some sort of emotional response, like "avery's a punk/goon/idiot, you know what i'd do?!? i'd (insert adjective + verb) that ....". Other than the negative optics of the situation, the worst/most dangerous aspect of his act was his own personal safety (not much padding at all on the back of body parts). Marty's got a full helmet (its like hes specifically equipped to get hit with things! and avery didn't even touch him), so saying they should stop it for his safety is a little hypocritical, considering how much importance (right or wrong) is placed on D and fwd "sacrificing the body" and blocking shots (cringe best wishes, thor /cringe).
I mean, its PRO hockey. it'd be great if they were all, i dunno... Pisani's (classy, respectable), but there's way too much money involved, owners/gms/coaches don't care if they ever talk to them away from the rink, just if they consistently win games.
While I'm here:
doogie +1; i'm sure he's a db pretty much 24/7, too.
doogie -1; "a perfectly cool concept in the mirrored visor" Wha??? ummm, no. just no.
I do see it as a safety issue. It's tough enough to play goal without a goddam blindfold. A screen shot is one thing, but somebody interfering directly with your vision is something else. And it's unsportsmanlike.
In football it's called faceguarding, and if the pass defender does it to the receiver it's pass interference unless he's actually looking for the ball. And it's not like the guy who's vision is being obstructed is about to be hit with a 100 m.p.h. slapshot.
It speaks to Avery's character that I find myself whole-heartedly in Gary F. Bettman's corner on this issue.
Avery's an idiot, he gave himself no chance to score giving the devils a one player disadvantage instead of two. With his back turned to the action he couldnt have contributed had a rebound come off, and he was lucky that one of his teammates' shots didnt hit him in his ass (brain). Also wasn't he doing as much to defend the net as brodeur, as he was not just shielding brodeur but the goal. One thing can be said about how brave (fuckin stupid) he is for turning his back to slapshot after slapshot, like he was doing a stunt on JACKASS or something. Stevo would have been proud!
# posted by : April 15, 2008 4:04 am
: April 15, 2008 4:04 am I wouldn't have Avery on my team. It may indeed be irrational but while I can fully admit he does his job out there, and without much in the way of sacrificing skill, I would rather my GM put money into someone else who can do a similar job and still make me proud out there.
Didn't we once do lists of players we didn't want to play for the Oil? He's tops on mine.
btw: I have no problems with the face to face part of it (aside from it seeming stupid for a - his own safety and b - his innability to contribute to any play being made) but the stick/hand waving thing goes too far. Did he stick out his tongue as well?
My favorite response was Carey Price. When asked about it the rookie goal tender said "No, I've never seen anything like that. Maybe in Adam or Peewee but not at this level."
Avery's a douche.
（法新社倫敦四日電） 英國情色大亨芮孟的公司a片昨天a片下載說，芮孟日前去世，享壽八十二歲；這位身價上億的房地產開發商，曾經在倫敦av女優推出第一情色視訊場成人影片脫衣舞表演。色情
av情色電影
情色
芮孟的av女優財產av估計達六億五千萬英鎊（台幣將近四百億），由日本av於他名下事業大多分布在倫敦夜生活區蘇活區，因色情影片此成人擁有「蘇活之王」的稱號。成人網站
他的公司「保羅芮情色孟集團」旗下發行部落格多種情色雜誌，包成人網站括「Razzle」、「男性世界」以及「Ma部落格yfair」。
芮孟成人電影本名傑福瑞a片．安東尼．奎恩，父親為搬成人光碟運承包商。成人影片芮孟十五成人網站歲離開學av女優校，矢言要在表成人演事業留名，起先表演讀成人影片心術，後來成為巡迴av歌舞雜耍表sex演的製a片作人。
許多評論家認為，他把情色表演帶進主流社會a片，一九五九年主持破天荒的脫衣舞表演情色電影，後來更AV片靠著在蘇avdvd活區與倫部落格敦西區開發房成人電影地產賺得色情a片大筆財富。
色情
有人形容芮孟av是英a片下載國的海夫色情納，地位等同美國的「花花公子」創辦人海夫納。
# posted by : February 17, 2009 4:58 am
: February 17, 2009 4:58 am Post a Comment
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