Wednesday, March 26, 2008
An Arena Response: Letter #1
Dear Mr. Katz,
If you would like to build a new facility for your private enterprise, more power to you. Just don't ask me to subsidize it through public funding, because:
a) you've got the money to pay for it yourself;
b) there's little to no economic benefit to me as a citizen to support your venture;
c) my quality of life as a hockey fan will not be lessened by the team's continued presence in the current Rexall Place. In fact, as I have stated before, it will only be enhanced.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope your hockey team kicks the shit out of the Wild tonight.
Sincerely,
Andy Grabia
Required readings
"Arena Feasibility Committee releases its brochure" --Covered In Oil
"If you build it, they will come. Or at least Mayor Mandel will" --Colby Cosh
"And another thing!" --Colby Cosh
"Wednesday Baseball Standings" --Matt Fenwick
"Shell game hides taxpayer contributions to new arena"--Scott Hennig
"Did Alberta Taxpayers fund the Oilers Dressing Room Renovations?"--Punjabi Oil
"In Alberta arena debate, the AY story gets mangled" --Atlantic Yards Report
If you would like to build a new facility for your private enterprise, more power to you. Just don't ask me to subsidize it through public funding, because:
a) you've got the money to pay for it yourself;
b) there's little to no economic benefit to me as a citizen to support your venture;
c) my quality of life as a hockey fan will not be lessened by the team's continued presence in the current Rexall Place. In fact, as I have stated before, it will only be enhanced.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope your hockey team kicks the shit out of the Wild tonight.
Sincerely,
Andy Grabia
Required readings
"Arena Feasibility Committee releases its brochure" --Covered In Oil
"If you build it, they will come. Or at least Mayor Mandel will" --Colby Cosh
"And another thing!" --Colby Cosh
"Wednesday Baseball Standings" --Matt Fenwick
"Shell game hides taxpayer contributions to new arena"--Scott Hennig
"Did Alberta Taxpayers fund the Oilers Dressing Room Renovations?"--Punjabi Oil
"In Alberta arena debate, the AY story gets mangled" --Atlantic Yards Report
Labels: New Arena
# posted by andy grabia @ 4:00 PM 
Comments:
Looking at the Google Maps sat photo of Edmonton, it looks like Rexall is only 4km from the center of the downtown building cluster. The problem isn't that Rexall is too far away, its that downtown Edmonton isn't big enough! For one example, the length of Central Park in New York is greater than the distance from Rexall to the center of downtown. By the way, what is Edmonton doing with an airport in the middle of their city?
Andy you have a point subsidizing an individual who seeks personal gain is wrong. Therefore I write my letter:
Dear University Students:
Do not ask me to subsidize 70% of your education. Go to a Technical School. It is cheaper.
Rickithebear
But theres a difference
a educated population is gooder for the economie than a stoopid one.
Besides theres hot chicks
I wrote council Tuesday evening. Ward 5 councillor Bryan Anderson wrote back today:
"Art",
Council received a report yesterday saying "based on North American experiences in other cities, a downtown arena in Edmonton is feasible and can contribute to the revitalization efforts in our downtown".
The report had no details on a site, funding or operation.
There has been no report asking Council to consider building anything. If that eventually comes, it will contain significant information Council does not have now.
There is no appetite on Council to increase property taxes or subsidize this kind of building at the expense of other priority projects.
Regards,
Bryan Anderson
Councillor, Ward 5
(780) 496-8130
Here's what Beverly-Clareview MLA Tony Vandermeer (or, I presume, his secretary and/or letterbot) wrote in response to my letter:
Thank you very much for your insight. I am here for the constituents, do not hesitate to keep me informed on all issues because your input is appreciated. My new e-mail address is
tony.vandermeer@assembly.ab.ca.
Tony Vandermeer
I'd hate to think Tony might have to interrupt fund-raising for the next landslide election to actually read the letters his constituency office receives, much less take the time, for the $100K+ he's hauling in a year sucking at the taxpayers' teat, to, you know, write a relevant response.
An Arts degree is subsidized to the tune of $17,000/yr is not "gooder" than a technical diploma subsidized to the tune of $7,000/yr. I would be happier if all the Arts students got trades went up to Ft. MC to create all kinds of tax money. They can take all there arts classes thru corespondence.
36,500 students at the U of A should give up one year of there subsidizes so I can get season tickets at a larger Rexall Place.
17,000 x 36500 = $620,500,000
Dear University Students:
Do not ask me to subsidize 70% of your education. Go to a Technical School. It is cheaper
Did you actually compare Eduction (which is vital to economic growth) to a new arena?
Come on. You're smarter that that.
I was a little bit more open minded on this arena issue at the start than the Oilogosphere, but it's become quite clear that:
a) The arena committee included a bunch of vestedly interested parties who had no oz. of objectivity
b) The arena report is nothing more than a glorified promoting travel brochure
c) Patrick LaForge's marketing campaign has clearly worked. Apparently, I'm being told in this thread below that the Oilers dressing room renovations (payed by the public) are okay because it helps the team towards a Stanley Cup.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=496257
This thread a must read if you're seeking comedy.
An Arts degree is subsidized to the tune of $17,000/yr is not "gooder" than a technical diploma subsidized to the tune of $7,000/yr. I would be happier if all the Arts students got trades went up to Ft. MC to create all kinds of tax money. They can take all there arts classes thru corespondence.
I agree to some extent. I think subsidizing Fine Arts students is absolutely nonsense - there's no reason to fund what should be one's hobby and has little value to society.
On the other hand, there are plenty of useful programs in the Arts Faculty that are useful for everyday society (Economics, Sociology, Psychology, Political Science, Social Workers, Human Geography, etc.)
Still, on principal, encouraging someone to go to school is much more useful than asking the Joe Taxpayer to subsidize a multi-billionaire's 500M+ project just so that he can increase luxury suites numbers by 30-40.
The discouraging thing is, the feasible arena ''study'' revealed that 18,000 seats should be the maximum. Funny, Bryn Griffiths revealed about a year and a half ago, before the committee was even formed, that from his sources, the Oilers want a new arena to have a capacity no more than 17,500-18,000. Conveniently, the arena ''study'' ''revealed'' just that.
"a) The arena committee included a bunch of vestedly interested parties who had no oz. of objectivity
b) The arena report is nothing more than a glorified promoting travel brochure"
PJO. Reading your previous posts, you seemed to be alot more in tune with the political machine at work here. I wouldn't be surprised to find out you had some party connections, or worked on a campaign committee this last election. I'm a little amazed that you expected anything much different than this. Its almost textbook Alberta politics.
That the brochure is so glossy and vacuous is simply a statement that the deal has been done, so there's no need to actually provide objective justification. Just make it look pretty and don't give anybody any real information they could use to come back at you later with. Its 101.
I was alot like you, trying to see the bigger picture here and I must admit, I think it has some merit (but lord shoot me if I ever start beaking off the phrase "World Class"). What's really turned me off is the blatant sell job that's being done (and badly I might add). Being in marketing, I know that the harder you appear to be selling something, the less people tend to believe you. And man, are these guys selling HARD.
As far as the 18,000 seats thing, guys - its always been about the luxury boxes. I know it pretty much slams joe fan, but its the reality of the numbers. That's where the needed revenue will come from 8 or 10 years from now. That or 500 buck blue seats.
PJO: You know its sarcasm. But many things are subsidized. We all have to pay for it. It is a question of where we waste it.
Plus talking about self promotion as a mini pack holder I recieved many of the EIG orchestrated survey's.
Having lived in this province since "94" (except for 6months) commitees are allways going to come up with the results the positioned groups want.
I am a little less bitchy about it because I had to pay taxes in NB. After that I have no problem paying my 10% flat or Edmonton mill rate.
One thing they did do out there(NB)was maintain a toll booth structure to generate dollars.
Toll the subburb people comming into Edmonton who benefit employment wise.
Now we're getting somewhere
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/cityplus/story.html?id=8c9b4f56-789d-45c1-b32d-ed447dbdc1d6&p=1
Re: The Simmons article
Nice to see all involved are still perfectly happy to continue to threaten to pack up and move elsewhere. Even though it's not even any of their decisions at this point. They'd almost be more subtle about it if they threatened to murder the mayor's dog and splay the corpse out on Wayne Gretzky's head if it didn't go down the way they wanted.
Toll the subburb people comming into Edmonton who benefit employment wise.
Toll HWY63, if there is any region in the province that has more people benefitting from employment without paying local taxes, it's Fort Mac....I bet you know that though.
Andy you have a point subsidizing an individual who seeks personal gain is wrong. Therefore I write my letter:
Dear University Students:
Do not ask me to subsidize 70% of your education. Go to a Technical School. It is cheaper.
The same "intangible" arguments that apply to hockey teams alsop apply to the arts. In short: pride, a place on the world stage, cultural identity yadda yadda. Popularity and economic impact are not the only things to consider. The difference, however, is that the private sector and public at large are not falling over themselves to support the arts in the same way they are with multi-million dollar sports businesses. Thus, I think some level of government support for the arts is entirely approporiate.
-Little Fury
taxes were meant to be wasted...
politicians are all douchebags...
these are the two fundamental truths to western culture.
Oilman: I agree anyone whom goes in to Fort Mac should pay to profit from there employment. Toll or fee wise to build up there infrastructure.
This is all a question of were ones desires the money to go. Opinion is a thing that most people are least willing to change.
Put 6 dogs in a room and you are going to get six diffrent barks. I pick my dog you pick yours.
As for the arts: Before I became a single parent I attended twice as many cultural events (gallery openings, Opera, Theatre, Symphony, and Concerts) than hockey games in a year.
If we are lucky maybe we can build a multi winged museum/gallery that recieves a circulation of acquisitions stored in the basements of all the great gallerys/museums of the world.
Build it right next to the new Arena. It will revitalize the downtown and the students and toll booths could pay for it.
Oilman: I agree anyone whom goes in to Fort Mac should pay to profit from there employment.
What? Like having to live there isn't punishment enough?
Axeman
A point re: subsidizing the arts vs. subsidizing a new arena.
Pretty much every arts entity is a non-profit organization. The Oilers are a for profit corporation.
Now, we do subsidize for profit corporations from time to time (Dell, anyone?) But intangibles aside, let's not lose sight of this distinction.
"Nice to see all involved are still perfectly happy to continue to threaten to pack up and move elsewhere. Even though it's not even any of their decisions at this point."
In fact, its downright presumptuous considering most of this group of flotsam (including - dare I say - Laforge) will have little or no say about the team as soon as the ink is dry on the Oilers sale contract. Just the fact that this was mentioned must have Katz phoning up his lawyers to speed up a whole bunch of termination papers. "Lets see, how do I spell that last name again...L...a...f...o...r..."
oh come on. If they are gonna waste tax payers money on giant bubbles, giant stairs and 80million dollar art gallaries, at least "waste" it on a hockey arena.
-doug
As far as the 18,000 seats thing, guys - its always been about the luxury boxes. I know it pretty much slams joe fan, but its the reality of the numbers. That's where the needed revenue will come from 8 or 10 years from now. That or 500 buck blue seats.
Sorry David S., I find no reason that this should be true. Right now in the U.S. luxury boxes are on their way out. And building a Montreal (21,200) sized rink may not be necessary, but why not?
That's a nice article, but a completely different situation for Edmonton
Especially with only 1 sports team.
You can say that again PJO. But more fundamentally, Alberta was built built on old-school relationship building/back-door deals (speaking of which, you're witnessing another example here). Don't believe me? Go check out the basement walls of Rutherford House at the U of A sometime.
As a result, both Calgary and Edmonton have substantial waiting lists for luxury boxes. And if you do a little digging, you'll find out just how much those boxes go for. And I promise you'll shit your pants when you do.
Those potential new boxes represent pretty much the only way to substantially increase revenue for a team that's already maxed out most of its existing opportunities.
I agree that old-school schmoozing is going out of style in the US. But its alive and well here in Alberta.
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Looking at the Google Maps sat photo of Edmonton, it looks like Rexall is only 4km from the center of the downtown building cluster. The problem isn't that Rexall is too far away, its that downtown Edmonton isn't big enough! For one example, the length of Central Park in New York is greater than the distance from Rexall to the center of downtown. By the way, what is Edmonton doing with an airport in the middle of their city?
# posted by 
: March 26, 2008 5:15 PM
: March 26, 2008 5:15 PM Andy you have a point subsidizing an individual who seeks personal gain is wrong. Therefore I write my letter:
Dear University Students:
Do not ask me to subsidize 70% of your education. Go to a Technical School. It is cheaper.
Rickithebear
But theres a difference
a educated population is gooder for the economie than a stoopid one.
Besides theres hot chicks
# posted by : March 26, 2008 6:06 PM
: March 26, 2008 6:06 PM I wrote council Tuesday evening. Ward 5 councillor Bryan Anderson wrote back today:
"Art",
Council received a report yesterday saying "based on North American experiences in other cities, a downtown arena in Edmonton is feasible and can contribute to the revitalization efforts in our downtown".
The report had no details on a site, funding or operation.
There has been no report asking Council to consider building anything. If that eventually comes, it will contain significant information Council does not have now.
There is no appetite on Council to increase property taxes or subsidize this kind of building at the expense of other priority projects.
Regards,
Bryan Anderson
Councillor, Ward 5
(780) 496-8130
Here's what Beverly-Clareview MLA Tony Vandermeer (or, I presume, his secretary and/or letterbot) wrote in response to my letter:
Thank you very much for your insight. I am here for the constituents, do not hesitate to keep me informed on all issues because your input is appreciated. My new e-mail address is
tony.vandermeer@assembly.ab.ca.
Tony Vandermeer
I'd hate to think Tony might have to interrupt fund-raising for the next landslide election to actually read the letters his constituency office receives, much less take the time, for the $100K+ he's hauling in a year sucking at the taxpayers' teat, to, you know, write a relevant response.
An Arts degree is subsidized to the tune of $17,000/yr is not "gooder" than a technical diploma subsidized to the tune of $7,000/yr. I would be happier if all the Arts students got trades went up to Ft. MC to create all kinds of tax money. They can take all there arts classes thru corespondence.
36,500 students at the U of A should give up one year of there subsidizes so I can get season tickets at a larger Rexall Place.
17,000 x 36500 = $620,500,000
Dear University Students:
Do not ask me to subsidize 70% of your education. Go to a Technical School. It is cheaper
Did you actually compare Eduction (which is vital to economic growth) to a new arena?
Come on. You're smarter that that.
I was a little bit more open minded on this arena issue at the start than the Oilogosphere, but it's become quite clear that:
a) The arena committee included a bunch of vestedly interested parties who had no oz. of objectivity
b) The arena report is nothing more than a glorified promoting travel brochure
c) Patrick LaForge's marketing campaign has clearly worked. Apparently, I'm being told in this thread below that the Oilers dressing room renovations (payed by the public) are okay because it helps the team towards a Stanley Cup.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=496257
This thread a must read if you're seeking comedy.
An Arts degree is subsidized to the tune of $17,000/yr is not "gooder" than a technical diploma subsidized to the tune of $7,000/yr. I would be happier if all the Arts students got trades went up to Ft. MC to create all kinds of tax money. They can take all there arts classes thru corespondence.
I agree to some extent. I think subsidizing Fine Arts students is absolutely nonsense - there's no reason to fund what should be one's hobby and has little value to society.
On the other hand, there are plenty of useful programs in the Arts Faculty that are useful for everyday society (Economics, Sociology, Psychology, Political Science, Social Workers, Human Geography, etc.)
Still, on principal, encouraging someone to go to school is much more useful than asking the Joe Taxpayer to subsidize a multi-billionaire's 500M+ project just so that he can increase luxury suites numbers by 30-40.
The discouraging thing is, the feasible arena ''study'' revealed that 18,000 seats should be the maximum. Funny, Bryn Griffiths revealed about a year and a half ago, before the committee was even formed, that from his sources, the Oilers want a new arena to have a capacity no more than 17,500-18,000. Conveniently, the arena ''study'' ''revealed'' just that.
"a) The arena committee included a bunch of vestedly interested parties who had no oz. of objectivity
b) The arena report is nothing more than a glorified promoting travel brochure"
PJO. Reading your previous posts, you seemed to be alot more in tune with the political machine at work here. I wouldn't be surprised to find out you had some party connections, or worked on a campaign committee this last election. I'm a little amazed that you expected anything much different than this. Its almost textbook Alberta politics.
That the brochure is so glossy and vacuous is simply a statement that the deal has been done, so there's no need to actually provide objective justification. Just make it look pretty and don't give anybody any real information they could use to come back at you later with. Its 101.
I was alot like you, trying to see the bigger picture here and I must admit, I think it has some merit (but lord shoot me if I ever start beaking off the phrase "World Class"). What's really turned me off is the blatant sell job that's being done (and badly I might add). Being in marketing, I know that the harder you appear to be selling something, the less people tend to believe you. And man, are these guys selling HARD.
As far as the 18,000 seats thing, guys - its always been about the luxury boxes. I know it pretty much slams joe fan, but its the reality of the numbers. That's where the needed revenue will come from 8 or 10 years from now. That or 500 buck blue seats.
# posted by : March 26, 2008 10:59 PM
: March 26, 2008 10:59 PM PJO: You know its sarcasm. But many things are subsidized. We all have to pay for it. It is a question of where we waste it.
Plus talking about self promotion as a mini pack holder I recieved many of the EIG orchestrated survey's.
Having lived in this province since "94" (except for 6months) commitees are allways going to come up with the results the positioned groups want.
I am a little less bitchy about it because I had to pay taxes in NB. After that I have no problem paying my 10% flat or Edmonton mill rate.
One thing they did do out there(NB)was maintain a toll booth structure to generate dollars.
Toll the subburb people comming into Edmonton who benefit employment wise.
Now we're getting somewhere
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/cityplus/story.html?id=8c9b4f56-789d-45c1-b32d-ed447dbdc1d6&p=1
Re: The Simmons article
Nice to see all involved are still perfectly happy to continue to threaten to pack up and move elsewhere. Even though it's not even any of their decisions at this point. They'd almost be more subtle about it if they threatened to murder the mayor's dog and splay the corpse out on Wayne Gretzky's head if it didn't go down the way they wanted.
Toll the subburb people comming into Edmonton who benefit employment wise.
Toll HWY63, if there is any region in the province that has more people benefitting from employment without paying local taxes, it's Fort Mac....I bet you know that though.
Andy you have a point subsidizing an individual who seeks personal gain is wrong. Therefore I write my letter:
Dear University Students:
Do not ask me to subsidize 70% of your education. Go to a Technical School. It is cheaper.
The same "intangible" arguments that apply to hockey teams alsop apply to the arts. In short: pride, a place on the world stage, cultural identity yadda yadda. Popularity and economic impact are not the only things to consider. The difference, however, is that the private sector and public at large are not falling over themselves to support the arts in the same way they are with multi-million dollar sports businesses. Thus, I think some level of government support for the arts is entirely approporiate.
-Little Fury
# posted by : March 27, 2008 9:06 AM
: March 27, 2008 9:06 AM taxes were meant to be wasted...
politicians are all douchebags...
these are the two fundamental truths to western culture.
Oilman: I agree anyone whom goes in to Fort Mac should pay to profit from there employment. Toll or fee wise to build up there infrastructure.
This is all a question of were ones desires the money to go. Opinion is a thing that most people are least willing to change.
Put 6 dogs in a room and you are going to get six diffrent barks. I pick my dog you pick yours.
As for the arts: Before I became a single parent I attended twice as many cultural events (gallery openings, Opera, Theatre, Symphony, and Concerts) than hockey games in a year.
If we are lucky maybe we can build a multi winged museum/gallery that recieves a circulation of acquisitions stored in the basements of all the great gallerys/museums of the world.
Build it right next to the new Arena. It will revitalize the downtown and the students and toll booths could pay for it.
Oilman: I agree anyone whom goes in to Fort Mac should pay to profit from there employment.
What? Like having to live there isn't punishment enough?
Axeman
# posted by : March 27, 2008 11:48 AM
: March 27, 2008 11:48 AM A point re: subsidizing the arts vs. subsidizing a new arena.
Pretty much every arts entity is a non-profit organization. The Oilers are a for profit corporation.
Now, we do subsidize for profit corporations from time to time (Dell, anyone?) But intangibles aside, let's not lose sight of this distinction.
# posted by : March 27, 2008 2:28 PM
: March 27, 2008 2:28 PM "Nice to see all involved are still perfectly happy to continue to threaten to pack up and move elsewhere. Even though it's not even any of their decisions at this point."
In fact, its downright presumptuous considering most of this group of flotsam (including - dare I say - Laforge) will have little or no say about the team as soon as the ink is dry on the Oilers sale contract. Just the fact that this was mentioned must have Katz phoning up his lawyers to speed up a whole bunch of termination papers. "Lets see, how do I spell that last name again...L...a...f...o...r..."
# posted by : March 27, 2008 5:03 PM
: March 27, 2008 5:03 PM oh come on. If they are gonna waste tax payers money on giant bubbles, giant stairs and 80million dollar art gallaries, at least "waste" it on a hockey arena.
-doug
# posted by : March 27, 2008 7:06 PM
: March 27, 2008 7:06 PM As far as the 18,000 seats thing, guys - its always been about the luxury boxes. I know it pretty much slams joe fan, but its the reality of the numbers. That's where the needed revenue will come from 8 or 10 years from now. That or 500 buck blue seats.
Sorry David S., I find no reason that this should be true. Right now in the U.S. luxury boxes are on their way out. And building a Montreal (21,200) sized rink may not be necessary, but why not?
That's a nice article, but a completely different situation for Edmonton
Especially with only 1 sports team.
You can say that again PJO. But more fundamentally, Alberta was built built on old-school relationship building/back-door deals (speaking of which, you're witnessing another example here). Don't believe me? Go check out the basement walls of Rutherford House at the U of A sometime.
As a result, both Calgary and Edmonton have substantial waiting lists for luxury boxes. And if you do a little digging, you'll find out just how much those boxes go for. And I promise you'll shit your pants when you do.
Those potential new boxes represent pretty much the only way to substantially increase revenue for a team that's already maxed out most of its existing opportunities.
I agree that old-school schmoozing is going out of style in the US. But its alive and well here in Alberta.
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# posted by : December 22, 2008 8:41 AM
: December 22, 2008 8:41 AM Post a Comment
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