Monday, February 18, 2008
Trade Garon
Hockey Hall of Fame writer Jim Matheson (that's his legal name; the only Edmonton area person with a longer one is Jarome Arthur-Leigh Adekunle Tig Junior Elvis Iginla) has a column up today about trades. While there's not too much interesting to me in that piece and while writing trade proposals isn't really my bag, something is very obvious to me: Mathieu Garon should be a hot commodity at the trade deadline and, if he's interested, Kevin Lowe might be able to get a good return for him. What's more, it might make sense for him to do that.
First of all, Garon probably isn't really this good. He's currently sitting at a .920 save percentage. He was at .907 and at .894 in 2005-06. He posted a .921 in 19 games in 2003-04. This is the first year in which he's really put up the save percentage that exceeds the league average and played a substantial amount of games. In light of his age and history, I'm doubtful that he's taken a real leap into the elite as opposed to just having a good/lucky season.
Second, there are some teams out there who you'd think might be susceptible to the indefinable charms of Kevin Lowe on this particular point. Lowe has some experience with parachuting a good goaltender into a team that's suffering from horrific goaltending. The results were pretty good. In particular, the Capitals stick out to me. He could also repeat the names "Martin Vagner, Maxime Daigneault and Derek Krestanovich" - those were the guys drafted with all of the picks that the Flyers traded Washington for Adam Oates when they had a hole to fill down the middle in 2002. (He shouldn't mention that the Caps moved the pick that was used on Vagner to get the pick that they used to take Alexander Semin but you get my drift.)
Washington is in a somewhat similar position to the Oilers of 2005-06, in that they're outshooting their opposition by a substantial margin at ES - they're second in the league at this at 5 on 5, according to behindthenet.ca. Despite that, they're at -0.2/60 at ES, 21st in the NHL, largely because the legendary duo of Olaf Kolzig and Brent Johnson. Kolzig, the de facto number one, is having a terrible season, posting an .889 save percentage. Kolzig's had one above average season in terms of save percentage in the last four and is getting up there in years. Washington has an .891 save percentage at the moment; the difference between that and the number posted by Garon is huge.
I don't necessarily think that Washington is as good as that Oilers team - I actually don't think that they're anywhere near that team - but they're sitting in a pretty sweet spot right now. They're two points behind the Hurricanes, with two games in hand and tied with Atlanta, with a game in hand. The Panthers sit two points back of Washington - the Capitals have a game in hand on them as well. The prize for the Oilers in 2005-06 if they could claw their way into the playoffs was 7th or 8th spot and a date with Dallas or Detroit; the prize for winning the Southeast is the 3rd seed and home ice for the first round, probably at least three games and a shot at a run that really moves tickets for next season. The Eastern Conference of 2007-08 isn't the Western Conference of 2005-06. There's a real shot at a run in a market where hockey tickets don't get sold just because they're hockey tickets.
Back in the days of Conkannen, I was doing the math on the difference between their save percentage and the save percentage posted by a league average goalie in terms of goals on a regular basis and it was astounding. It's the same with the Caps this year; they've seen about 1660 shots, league average is about .015 ahead of them...you're talking 25 goals or so to date. Four or five wins. For the twenty games remaining, that's a win or two and Garon has some gaudy shootout stats to point to as well. Garon's contract - he's signed for another year at $1MM is another selling point, particularly when Kolzig's contract is up this year.
Finally, it doesn't make sense for the Oilers to be holding onto value for this year or, probably, next year. I took some jabs at Lowe last year for trying to bring the Billy Beane when he doesn't quite get it. Beane made an interesting series of trades this offseason that Lowe should be paying some attention to. He traded Dan Haren (15-9, 137 ERA+, 222.7 IP last year) and Nick Swisher (127 OPS+ in 539 AB last year), despite the fact that the A's owned those guys on cheap contracts for a bit longer. Why did he do this? He did it because the A's weren't going to be competitive with those guys in the lineup and it made sense to transfer what value they might have to the future, when the A's anticipate being a stronger team. The return was a rather large haul of prospects. He's trying to build a team that can compete for a World Series, Haren and Swisher weren't going to be cheap contributors in the window when he perceives success to be likely - they're cashed in for guys who might be. It's the absolute right move to make.
If Lowe could get a first - and I know that people are going to point out what Bryzgalov pulled in return but the market is different at the trade deadline (shame that the Oilers didn't have a large 6'6" defenceman available last year to move) and you get situations where needs are glaring, the price of fixing them in terms of dollars is low and the return can be significant - I'd think that he'd have to think awfully long and hard about this trade. It'd be a defensible move from Washington's perspective, even with that price, I think, because the upside is so huge and it's now - it's not a maybe, down the road. This would be nowhere near the most lopsided trade deadline move of all time, in terms of expected impact versus cost.
I'm sure that anyone who's read this far is having a hard time wrapping their head around the possibility that Garon could possibly be worth that sort of a return but it's a case of extreme need meeting limited demand. I don't see any goalies out there who a GM could talk himself into believing could come in and play at an above average level and above average goaltending would be worth the world to Washington. I don't think that any of this will happen; indeed, I don't think that Kevin Lowe sees things the same way that I do but a move like I've suggested would be a real coup for the Oilers and a step in building towards a window for success.
I'd rather see Roloson go there for a 4th (and lose his salary) than see Garon go for a first. Maybe I'm just too invested in keeping the oilers pick out of the top five.
It's an interesting idea though. Roloson vs Garon next year, with maybe JDD as the backup if either is gone. I understand what you mean about Garon coming back down to earth, but at worst he'll be just as bad as Roloson, no? I'd rather have Roloson's cap space and a fourth (or fifth, or anything after) than Roloson's cap hit and a first. Esp. ifthat's the difference between signing both Gilbert and Pits, or just one.
I was thinking Roloson the whole time too. Maybe Lowe works the "proven playoff performer" angle. How much different is the return for Roloson and Garon?
Good article MC. Capitals do seem to have a need for improved goaltending.
I've disagreed with you on Penner before but this time I do agree with your window of opportunity theory. Looking at Washington, they locked up Kolzig when he would be most valuable in order for him to be expendable when the team turns the corner. I'm not too sure the Oilers are 4 years away but if you trade Garon today, would you be trading at his peak value? My crystal ball thinks you probably are. That being said, Garon has emerged as a leader on the team and is incredibly valuable so the deal better be unreal.
I would say the difference btw trade values of Roloson and Garon would be huge.
PS I know the picks are gone but if we trade Garon I'm boycotting the draft.
You'd boycott the draft if we trade Garon and get back a pick that's in the 7-11 range? That seems a little perverse.
If Washington gets Garon, they IMO win the SE and the pick is in the 20 range. Not enough to make me want to sit through Burke's bs lottery pick.
Interesting comments about Beane's offseason.
I've been thinking about this window of opportunity as well:
1) It's a major reason why the RFA offer sheet to Penner was nuts. The Oilers NEED this 1st rounder this year. The 1st rounder fits better in the window.
2) Before the injury, I was thinking a Horcoff deal would have made a lot of sense. Max value, soon to be expensive, and sure to be attractive to many a playoff team. I was thinking a deal to CBJ for Voracek and a pick (preferably their 1st this year) would have been a good deal for both sides.
3) Lowe needs to think long and hard about properly dumping some contracts this year. Last year, vets like Sykora and even some of the dmen probably shouldn't have been retained past the deadline.
4) If we had to define the window, I'd say it's the last two years of Hemsky's deal. Hemsky being the clear elite player on the roster with upside and under contract long term. So it's 10/11 and 11/12 that should be the target years IMO.
(At this point I'd just like Lowe to decide what he's doing.)
1) It's a major reason why the RFA offer sheet to Penner was nuts. The Oilers NEED this 1st rounder this year. The 1st rounder fits better in the window.
If you see the window as 10/11 and 11/12, I'm not sure I agree with this. What makes you think that first round pick will be better in 2-3 years than Penner will be?
Ya I think Penner fits nicely into the 10/11 11/12 window. He will be 28-29 and the prime of his career.
Keep Horcoff. He fits into our window as a Brindamour type player (possibly captain). He is also a player who improves almost every year.
RE Garon, if he plays this well next year, then are we trading the next Kiprusoff (in terms of finding an elite goalie from another teams castaways)? It only costs us 1 million to find out. I'd much rather see other moves (Staois? Pisani?) that could be considered moves towards success. I'd only deal Garon at this point if some some pie in the sky offer comes by.
I'm pretty sure he's not the next Kiprusoff, but it's also worth noting that the .920 SP arguably understates his real value because he's performed even better in the high-leverage environment of the shootout...
Is Garon not a good goalie?
Aside from his two groin-and-shoulder addled seasons with the Kings, he's had a pretty good career SVP.
He's certainly not Luongo-like, but Garon seems like a decent .910 goaltender. Who else are we going to play?
It's a nice idea, but there's no way the Caps trade a pick in the top half of the first round for a guy like Garon.
Either they improve enough in the regular season to win the division and get killed by the #6 seed making it the 15th pick in the draft, or they come 2nd (or lower) in their division, and the pick ends up in the top 10. Both outcomes are quite possible, but neither seem like a good move for Washington to make.
They're better off trying to make the playoffs with what they've got and look at an upgrade between the pipes through free agency.
It makes sense to me that the Caps should get a goaltender; heck, they should have picked one up long ago — but the management there seems married to Kolzig, regardless of performance, and I don't think that's going to change.
That team would have easily won the Southeast with some semblance of decent netminding.
While I see the logic, I'm questioning the basis of the underlying assumption, i.e. that Garon has horseshoes up his ass this year. He only played 138 NHL games coming into this season, and only one season over 40 games prior to this year ('05-'06). Can you really say either way which Garon is The Real Garon? It's not a small sample size, in the sense of 5-10 games, but it's not a huge one, in the sense of seven full NHL seasons, either. Furthermore, he spent most of his NHL career prioer to this year as a backup on mediocre to awful teams. I'm not ready to bet against him, or sell him off just yet, especially since he's been one of our better players for most of the season, but then I'm a sentimental fuck, anyway.
By the way, his full NHL numbers are:
2000-01, 11 GP, 2.44 GAA, 89.7% SVP
2001-02, 5 GP, 4.37 GAA, 87.1% SVP
2002-03, 8 GP, 1.99 GAA, 94.0% SVP
2003-04, 19 GP, 2.27 GAA, 92.1% SVP
2005-06, 63 GP, 3.22 GAA, 89.4% SVP
2006-07, 32 GP, 2.66 GAA, 90.7% SVP
2007-08, 36 GP, 2.40 GAA, 92.0% SVP
I dunno, make what you will of his backup years, but 2006 is looking like a bit of an anomaly here, barring deeper analysis suggesting otherwise. It may or may not be relevant that all of his AHL numbers after 2000 are 91.8% SVP or better, with a 92.7% SVP logged during the lockout in Manchester.
This is a surprise suggestion especially he's playing well, is cheap and without him, who do you play? Roli is done and we're stuck with his cap hit. He's the one to move.
A goalie to the Caps would be a good move, but they need more than a goalie. They need someone else called Ovechkin to score.
After the previous off-season's antics and this season's results, does Kevin Lowe have the capital to make such a bold move?
Before the injury, I was thinking a Horcoff deal would have made a lot of sense.
Yeah, this would have been about Horcoff if he wasn't hurt.
I'd much rather see other moves (Staois? Pisani?) that could be considered moves towards success. I'd only deal Garon at this point if some some pie in the sky offer comes by.
Moving guys like Staios, Pisani and Roloson isn't going to do anything for the Oilers other than move some salary and bring in a low end pick. If you're talking about building towards a window, moving them doesn't do anything for you.
If Washington is after a goalie, it will be Emery. He is being shopped extensively, and is young, talented and cocky enough to play on a team with Alexander... Garon is okay, but he has the career backup label, and it wont be a smart move to pick up a well travelled mediocre goalie for a 1st rounder in this years deep draft...
Garon might've shed the "career back-up" label as of this year so that's something that might not be on the table any longer.
Mike threw out the .910 number and I'm inclined to agree with him. Lately I've been haunted by how many posts have been in Garon's '08 favour while knowing that's likely to bounce the other way next year. So that's been a factor when I think of anointing him as our next goalie of the future.
Overall, though, I don't trust that Lowe can find another Garon for that cheap and considering we really don't have a guy hitting 40 homers in the minors, I'd just as soon as stick with the guy who's carrying the mail right now.
That doesn't mean I don't understand Ty's sell high idea or that Garon's numbers won't tumble a little in years ahead; it's more that I don't think Lowe's a guy who can find goalies at will.
Tyler, if you need to relocate your blog someplace, let me know. I've got loads of bandwidth and space available that I'm not using and I'd be happy to hook you up, even if trading Garon is madness. :P
Mike threw out the .910 number and I'm inclined to agree with him. Lately I've been haunted by how many posts have been in Garon's '08 favour while knowing that's likely to bounce the other way next year. So that's been a factor when I think of anointing him as our next goalie of the future.
Is it any more likely that those shots will go in next year than wide completely?
Is it any more likely that those shots will go in next year than wide completely?
No it isn't.....I've had this discussion with Vic about the "post luck" thing - and I think it's really grasping to find something wrong where there isn't anything. 9 time out of 10 those pucks would be wide at one inch one way, or a save one inch the other...I'm sure that at least half of post hits miss the goalie by about an inch - so if that puck was moved in enough to actually be on net, it would hit the goalie...the other thing that's overlooked in the post hit arguement is that you can find the stats of pucks that hit the post and stay out - what about the pucks that hit the post and go in? Do they even out? Is the puck that hits the outside of the post any more important thant the one that misses the post by mm's? Really, it's a terrible arguement to try and break down a goalies play because of "post luck"
Saying this year the pucks are hitting the posts so next year they're likely to go in is the same as saying you're due for a win in cards because you've been losing for so long.
Statistics don't work like that, and the goalie's response of "That's all I gave you" to "I beat you but not the post" actually works better.
Garon's SP dropping back to a more sane .910 is believable though, so on that logic, sell high. But - who plays next year then? Can Lowe revive some other G's career, do we suffer through Roloson backed by Deslauriers or Dubnyk (sounds like the return of Essensa / Shtalenkov to me), or does he burn everything down? I have to say, none of those options strike me as giving us a team I'd want to fork out for Centre Ice to watch.
Saying this year the pucks are hitting the posts so next year they're likely to go in is the same as saying you're due for a win in cards because you've been losing for so long.
Nah, that's not right. The analogy doesn't fit. Say that any shot has a 50/50 chance of hitting the post and a goalie has a season where 90% of them hit the post. Next year, he can expect more to go in. Sure, not all but 10% - ie, not enough to balance things out perfectly - but it should be a 50/50 proposition if it's all luck.
Can Lowe revive some other G's career, do we suffer through Roloson backed by Deslauriers or Dubnyk (sounds like the return of Essensa / Shtalenkov to me), or does he burn everything down? I have to say, none of those options strike me as giving us a team I'd want to fork out for Centre Ice to watch.
Well if Garon slides back to a .910ish guy, the Oilers probably don't quality as "a team I'd want to fork out for Centre Ice to watch". Of course, this year's version, even with Garon, doesn't really hit that either.
I believe in that post thing, I honestly do. I think it was the '02 season when I was watching an absolute tonne of hockey. It seemed to me that the team that hit the most posts lost and it's something I think still carries.
I know it worked for and not against the Preds on Tues night but I also know that teams were drawing iron left, right and crossbar;) in the Oilers first two wins of the season.
I can understand that the team hitting the most posts loses as they are the team missing the net with their shots...I still think it's just a wide shot with a different sound. I'd be willing to bet that the team that has the most shots go wide in a game also hot more posts.
"Nah, that's not right. The analogy doesn't fit. Say that any shot has a 50/50 chance of hitting the post and a goalie has a season where 90% of them hit the post. Next year, he can expect more to go in. Sure, not all but 10% - ie, not enough to balance things out perfectly - but it should be a 50/50 proposition if it's all luck."
Dice don't have memory, and neither do pucks. He can expect nothing beyond 50% will go in next year, and 50% won't, not that since this year 75% somehow stayed out, that next year it'll be 60% in to somehow magically balance things out.
I dunno if this year's team has been worth the $30 a month I'm firing over (I tried to watch some other teams too, I really did, but it's hard), but a few games have certainly been worth any amount of money to see. Last week's against Vancouver. (Damn, HNIC.) A lot of them the last couple months have been worth watching, actually. They may not be any more successful playing the grind style, but it's a hell of a lot of fun to watch.
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