Tuesday, March 06, 2007
Alex Freaking Tanguay
This is a list of the top Even Strength scorers in the NHL (should be most of the Top 20, plus a few more shown for illustration). The right-most column is ES Points per 60 minutes of ES ice-time.Alex Tanguay doesn't take faceoffs, or kill penalties. Although I wouldn't call him a liability (or a floater), he's not a great defensive forward. He doesn't hit for the sake of hitting, and he doesn't block shots. His PP scoring has been mediocre to poor this season.
But Good God is he ever productive. And if anything looks to be a fluke this year, it's his poor PP production, not his high ES production. Last season he scored 3.15ESP/60, good for 8th in the league among players with at least 50GP. In 2003/04 (remember, the Dead Puck Era), he scored 3.29ESP/60.
For years, the Flames have needed a player who -- everything else be damned -- puts up goals and assists, to make them difficult to play at both ends of the rink. Announcement: they got one.
Bruce Dowbiggin, breaking down the Flames by value-for-salary, categorized Alex Tanguay as "Pricey". Certainly not. I'm not sure what the exact appropriate price is for the best Even Strength scorer in the league, but $5.25M/yr -- for two more years to boot -- seems like a heckuva deal to me. There's plenty of GMs in the league who will pay (and have paid) more than that for guys who are essentially PP specialists.
I think I might start glossing Tanguay as Cris Carter. From Wikipedia:
[Eagles] Head coach Buddy Ryan, making one of the toughest coaching decisions of his career, graciously let him slip away, and in the process, helped to coin one of ESPN's Chris Berman's famous quotes about Carter: "All he does is catch touchdowns".
And all Alex Tanguay does is get the puck behind opposing goalies. Other than that, he's an overpaid disappointment.
# posted by Matt @ 12:58 pm 
Comments:
Bruce Dowbiggin, breaking down the Flames by value-for-salary, categorized Alex Tanguay as "Pricey".
Call this the Kevin Lowe Syndrome. Idiots.
Wow. I was unaware he had pole-vaulted over Iginla. Impressive.
In grading the acquisition during the summer, I noted that Tanguay was a good addition precisely because he's so effective ES (or, at least had been with the Avs), while that was the Flames main area of weakness in 05/06.
Good to see him continue to produce continue outside the shadows of Sakic and Forsberg.
Good to see him continue to produce continue outside the shadows of Sakic and Forsberg.
And that's probably why he's so underrated this year - he's used to performing under the radar with the Avs, and he has no problems letting other players on the team get all the press. Not a flashy guy, just gets the job done.
And Matt - good run of posts over the last couple of days. Liked a lot.
Somebody said something along the lines of, "Ryan Smyth was on his way out of Edmonton the day Tanguay signed his $5.25M/yr contract down in Calgary"
Do those numbers include EN events? 4on4 events?
Curious to know,
- kinger
Kinger, yes to all. I get most of my stuff from the NHL.com stats pages, not the original game sheets.
While # of EN goals are readily available at NHL.com, assists on ENGs are not; neither is TOI for EN situations or 4-on-4.
Tanguay, Iginla, and Langkow all have what I'd guess is an above-average # of EN events torquing their numbers and a below-average # number of 4-on-4 events dragging them down.
Clearly though, the exact numbers for everyone on the list would change a bit using strictly 5v5 events.
That Dowbiggin column was horrible, and one of many predictable "hey, Flames fans, watch out!" efforts in the aftermath of Smyth. I mean, yeah, someone's going to have to go, but Bruce could have at least backed up his salary predictions with comparables. It read like he was pulling the numbers off the top of his head.
MetroGnome said...
Good to see him continue to produce continue outside the shadows of Sakic and Forsberg.
Yeah especially while simultaneously stepping into Jarmoe's shadow.
Olli Jokinen at #22 and playing on a terrible team? There goes a few opinions out the window.
Anonymous said...
Olli Jokinen at #22 and playing on a terrible team? There goes a few opinions out the window.
Pfft. Maybe if you're an idiot. Should have seen him tonight man. Jokinen gets a soft ride and isn't worth a damn.
RQ, Smyth's absence on the list was not deliberate. I just grabbed the TOI for the most of the leaders in ES points, and added Thornton & Havlat.
To clarify again, to everyone else: This is not the exhaustive Top 25 List. I think the Top 10 is probably right, but past that it's just a collection of guys with good rates. (So Jokinen is *not* actually #22 in the league.)
Also, as RQ points out, there is definitely differences in how the coaches of these players use them. It's something to keep in mind too, although there's two sides to that coin as well. (A guy who can put up huge numbers, but only against soft opposing players, is nonetheless incredibly useful.)
As a Die-hard Avs fan, The Tanguay-Leopold trade has been a killer to me. Not only that but it cleared cap room to pick up Theodore...
It makes me weep that we let him go. for so little.
sbRiversQ said...
Pfft. Maybe if you're an idiot. Should have seen him tonight man. Jokinen gets a soft ride and isn't worth a damn.
Only in your world is a player who puts up 89 points a bum. I notice every comparison you post on Jokinen covers the past 5 years. Pretty useless info when the player is only 27. How about the last 2 years? Would playing on an all-star roster like Florida's mean nothing? Please feel free to continue making yourself look like a bigger fool. A huge one as a matter of fact when your team will be lucky to have one player reach 60 this year. With all that firepower we heard so much about as well. Opposition be damned. The NHL stats books are riddled with players who put up huge points against weaker opposition. Some are even in the HOF, hard as that must be for someone of your rare intellect to grasp. God forbid we should have players in the NHL that are offence first right? Are you Jacques LeMaire by chance? Or possibly Mr Offence himself, Craig MacTavish, here in an attempt to justify your rather warped reasoning and coaching record? Toby Peterson probably plays against tougher opposition than Jokinen. You should try to trade them straight up.
Only in your world is a player who puts up 89 points a bum. I notice every comparison you post on Jokinen covers the past 5 years. Pretty useless info when the player is only 27. How about the last 2 years?
I could post the previous two years as well - most of my comparisons would still hold up.
I just don't think Jokinen's a particularly good hockey player. Like Matt said, these players can be useful but I would argue that it's a bad idea to build your team and budget around a player that has to get the matchups all the time. I didn't have an issue with the player (other than the very similar numbers as compared to Horcoff) until he got that big extension.
Using the HHOF as a basis for this argument is amusing to me. It's not a very accurate HOF in my opinion.
Yeah especially while simultaneously stepping into Jarmoe's shadow.
Fair enough, but I think it would be reasonable to suggest that Tanguay has had something to do with Iginla's resurgence this year. Unless you think the ineffectual Jarmoe doppleganger split right about when Tanger came to town is just a big coincidence...
Nah, probably just a small coincidence. Iginla's a very good player with a track record of success. He wasn't going to stay down long with or without Tanguay.
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Bruce Dowbiggin, breaking down the Flames by value-for-salary, categorized Alex Tanguay as "Pricey".
Call this the Kevin Lowe Syndrome. Idiots.
Wow. I was unaware he had pole-vaulted over Iginla. Impressive.
In grading the acquisition during the summer, I noted that Tanguay was a good addition precisely because he's so effective ES (or, at least had been with the Avs), while that was the Flames main area of weakness in 05/06.
Good to see him continue to produce continue outside the shadows of Sakic and Forsberg.
Good to see him continue to produce continue outside the shadows of Sakic and Forsberg.
And that's probably why he's so underrated this year - he's used to performing under the radar with the Avs, and he has no problems letting other players on the team get all the press. Not a flashy guy, just gets the job done.
And Matt - good run of posts over the last couple of days. Liked a lot.
Somebody said something along the lines of, "Ryan Smyth was on his way out of Edmonton the day Tanguay signed his $5.25M/yr contract down in Calgary"
# posted by 
: March 06, 2007 2:07 pm
: March 06, 2007 2:07 pm Do those numbers include EN events? 4on4 events?
Curious to know,
- kinger
# posted by : March 06, 2007 3:41 pm
: March 06, 2007 3:41 pm Kinger, yes to all. I get most of my stuff from the NHL.com stats pages, not the original game sheets.
While # of EN goals are readily available at NHL.com, assists on ENGs are not; neither is TOI for EN situations or 4-on-4.
Tanguay, Iginla, and Langkow all have what I'd guess is an above-average # of EN events torquing their numbers and a below-average # number of 4-on-4 events dragging them down.
Clearly though, the exact numbers for everyone on the list would change a bit using strictly 5v5 events.
That Dowbiggin column was horrible, and one of many predictable "hey, Flames fans, watch out!" efforts in the aftermath of Smyth. I mean, yeah, someone's going to have to go, but Bruce could have at least backed up his salary predictions with comparables. It read like he was pulling the numbers off the top of his head.
# posted by : March 06, 2007 4:57 pm
: March 06, 2007 4:57 pm MetroGnome said...
Good to see him continue to produce continue outside the shadows of Sakic and Forsberg.
Yeah especially while simultaneously stepping into Jarmoe's shadow.
Olli Jokinen at #22 and playing on a terrible team? There goes a few opinions out the window.
# posted by : March 06, 2007 11:26 pm
: March 06, 2007 11:26 pm Anonymous said...
Olli Jokinen at #22 and playing on a terrible team? There goes a few opinions out the window.
Pfft. Maybe if you're an idiot. Should have seen him tonight man. Jokinen gets a soft ride and isn't worth a damn.
RQ, Smyth's absence on the list was not deliberate. I just grabbed the TOI for the most of the leaders in ES points, and added Thornton & Havlat.
To clarify again, to everyone else: This is not the exhaustive Top 25 List. I think the Top 10 is probably right, but past that it's just a collection of guys with good rates. (So Jokinen is *not* actually #22 in the league.)
Also, as RQ points out, there is definitely differences in how the coaches of these players use them. It's something to keep in mind too, although there's two sides to that coin as well. (A guy who can put up huge numbers, but only against soft opposing players, is nonetheless incredibly useful.)
As a Die-hard Avs fan, The Tanguay-Leopold trade has been a killer to me. Not only that but it cleared cap room to pick up Theodore...
It makes me weep that we let him go. for so little.
sbRiversQ said...
Pfft. Maybe if you're an idiot. Should have seen him tonight man. Jokinen gets a soft ride and isn't worth a damn.
Only in your world is a player who puts up 89 points a bum. I notice every comparison you post on Jokinen covers the past 5 years. Pretty useless info when the player is only 27. How about the last 2 years? Would playing on an all-star roster like Florida's mean nothing? Please feel free to continue making yourself look like a bigger fool. A huge one as a matter of fact when your team will be lucky to have one player reach 60 this year. With all that firepower we heard so much about as well. Opposition be damned. The NHL stats books are riddled with players who put up huge points against weaker opposition. Some are even in the HOF, hard as that must be for someone of your rare intellect to grasp. God forbid we should have players in the NHL that are offence first right? Are you Jacques LeMaire by chance? Or possibly Mr Offence himself, Craig MacTavish, here in an attempt to justify your rather warped reasoning and coaching record? Toby Peterson probably plays against tougher opposition than Jokinen. You should try to trade them straight up.
# posted by : March 07, 2007 9:21 am
: March 07, 2007 9:21 am Only in your world is a player who puts up 89 points a bum. I notice every comparison you post on Jokinen covers the past 5 years. Pretty useless info when the player is only 27. How about the last 2 years?
I could post the previous two years as well - most of my comparisons would still hold up.
I just don't think Jokinen's a particularly good hockey player. Like Matt said, these players can be useful but I would argue that it's a bad idea to build your team and budget around a player that has to get the matchups all the time. I didn't have an issue with the player (other than the very similar numbers as compared to Horcoff) until he got that big extension.
Using the HHOF as a basis for this argument is amusing to me. It's not a very accurate HOF in my opinion.
Yeah especially while simultaneously stepping into Jarmoe's shadow.
Fair enough, but I think it would be reasonable to suggest that Tanguay has had something to do with Iginla's resurgence this year. Unless you think the ineffectual Jarmoe doppleganger split right about when Tanger came to town is just a big coincidence...
Nah, probably just a small coincidence. Iginla's a very good player with a track record of success. He wasn't going to stay down long with or without Tanguay.
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