Thursday, November 09, 2006
Guh?
I really... don't know what to make of this. Did Eric Francis really put this in the newspaper? From a column on Andrew Ference:
Maybe it's just me, but I read this as if he delivered this line the same way as if he had started it with "Your mother".
NON-HOCKEY-RELATED EXTRA: Speaking of suggestive comments, a Ralph Klein line -- mere weeks from his retirement and at a roast -- is unaccountably top-billed at the Herald's website:
Some of the reaction was insane, if predictable:
Three words: Lighten up, Francis. Joe Ceci apparently doesn't know the difference between a sexist joke and a sex joke. The other two obviously don't even know what a roast is. Topic of discussion? Wha???
My eyes are probably rolling even more than usual, having seen some of the Comedy Central Roast of Pamela Anderson recently, featuring Hepatitis-C jokes and a suggestion that one of her body parts played the cave in the last Batman movie...
Anyway, so long Ralph, and thanks for privatizing the liquor stores!
"He's really tough -- people don't know that but he's fought some tough guys in this league," said [Marcus] Nilson, whose club got a rise out of Ference's spirited, 89-second draw with Barnaby, who he'd fought twice before.
"Anytime a guy is standing in there for that long and in such a good fight, it's a big boost. The emotions get going and it kind of gets the whole team going."
The crowd too, prompting a scribe to ask the last time he got a standing ovation.
"My wife gave me one the other night," said Ference.
Maybe it's just me, but I read this as if he delivered this line the same way as if he had started it with "Your mother".
NON-HOCKEY-RELATED EXTRA: Speaking of suggestive comments, a Ralph Klein line -- mere weeks from his retirement and at a roast -- is unaccountably top-billed at the Herald's website:
But late in the evening, during his rebuttal speech, Klein said: "Now Belinda roasted me as a Conservative, but of course now she's a Liberal. And I wasn't surprised she crossed over -- I don't think she ever did have a Conservative bone in her body. Well, except for one."
At that point, Klein looked slightly uncomfortable and glanced to his side to catch someone's eye as he laughed. His remarks were met first with groans, then laughter, applause and whistles from the hundreds in attendance.
"Well, speaking of Peter MacKay..."
Some of the reaction was insane, if predictable:
Calgary Ald. Joe Ceci, who attended the event, said he was surprised to hear the remarks in "mixed company," even if it was at a roast.
"Overall, that's a sexist remark and it probably indicates that in the political arena, men judge women differently than men judge men."
Fellow alderman Andre Chabot said the remarks were "gratuitous" and "had absolutely nothing to do with the topic of discussion."
[...]
Janice Kinch, chairwoman of Equal Voice Alberta South, a group that promotes women's entry into politics, said her first response to the comments was, "Shame on Ralph."
Three words: Lighten up, Francis. Joe Ceci apparently doesn't know the difference between a sexist joke and a sex joke. The other two obviously don't even know what a roast is. Topic of discussion? Wha???
My eyes are probably rolling even more than usual, having seen some of the Comedy Central Roast of Pamela Anderson recently, featuring Hepatitis-C jokes and a suggestion that one of her body parts played the cave in the last Batman movie...
Anyway, so long Ralph, and thanks for privatizing the liquor stores!
# posted by Matt @ 9:57 am 
Comments:
I can confirm this quote. I heard the interview on Clagary radio (960am) last night at about 5:00pm while sitting through a snow induced, extra-long commute.
uh yup .. Clagary .. that's what I said
And yes Matt, your take on the delivery of the line is pretty close.
The best touch is the supposedly professional "satirist" who expressed horror at hearing, um, a roast joke at a roast. I'd suggest that the gentleman look for a new career cleaning toilets, but he'd probably topple over in shock the first time he found some shit in one.
For professional reasons I can only describe myself as "disappointed" in the Herald for running such a painfully contrived and culturally ignorant story. Its very appearance is an accidental snapshot of the modern newsroom.
Agreed.
The joke is funny, but definitely not for mass consumption at this point in a delicate time.
Painfully contrived, indeed. The kicker, I suppose, is that Professional satirist Bob Robertson ("...I don't want to offend too many people") was the guy who referenced the "dog" comment, which lame as it might be, is an actual insult. Klein simply referenced the well-known existence of her old boyfriend. "She had sex with Peter Mackay" is not an insult, is it?
"Is it true that they give donkey rides to the bottom?" -- now THAT'S an insult.
doesn't know the difference between a sexist joke and a sex joke.
Thanks to the militant feminist coloring of contemporary "Political Correctness" the two are indeed one and the same in many people's minds these days.
"She had sex with Peter Mackay" is not an insult, is it?
Ah...too easy.
The women in my family could care less about Stronach, but they're fairly offended at the attitude displayed by the current conservative crop (or at least the attitude the media is displaying they display...which makes a difference), and they're hardly militant.
I mean c'mon...a century of voting...I'm sure women feel they're taken seriously in Canadian politics. I mean, really, African Americans are over the whole slave thing, right?
Oh Ralph, you will be missed. That was an awesome joke. Ralph is King!!!
And for all those people who are so sensitive these days, chill out.
If taking women seriously requires taking Belinda Stronach seriously as an individual, women are in big trouble. Fortunately most people of both sexes are perfectly capable of recognizing that as a non sequitur. And either way a roast is still a roast.
I think you should stick to doing hockey posts.
Your analysis on what is or is not a sexist joke isn't one of your best work. And I gave leeway given the fact you're a flames fan.
Sex joke at the expense of a woman = sexist joke. Got it!
P.S. Joe Ceci's comment about mixed company really gives him away, doesn't it...
Your analysis on what is or is not a sexist joke isn't one of your best work. And I gave leeway given the fact you're a flames fan.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how this comment is sexist. How is a negative remark directed towards one particular woman interpreted as a smear on all women?
I just don't get it.
"I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how this comment is sexist. How is a negative remark directed towards one particular woman interpreted as a smear on all women?"
Dead on. Stronach is the type of woman who makes me ashamed to be female. And they are everywhere in the media these days. Makes me feel better to poke fun at them, anyways.
"Your analysis on what is or is not a sexist joke isn't one of your best work. And I gave leeway given the fact you're a flames fan."
When did Stronach get chosen to be a proxy for all women? It was a joke about her and her ex and a pretty funny one at that.
So it depends on the type of woman a person is before it's judged as an inappropriate comment?
Having had experience working in the area of domestic violence and having worked with offenders who beat women, comments like this is the gateway to dehumanizing women which in turns makes it okay to commit acts of violence in them. As a public figure, he should know better.
But then, he's had the blessing of standing on Oil and shouting how much he's done for the province while the roads are cracking, the environment's going to hell and the school system is wrought with problems.
yeah, way to go Ralph.
You know what grace, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and the 'Nucks are sucking some serious cigar these days.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how this comment is sexist. How is a negative remark directed towards one particular woman interpreted as a smear on all women?
Because it's representative of what men have historically sat around and done. It's a man using another man's sexual conquests/whatever as something to garner him some cultural capital through comedy. It's the kind of comment that ends with guys slapping high fives and shit like that...'haha...MacKay sure did bang Stronach...hahaha'.
It also has to do with the cultural ideology of women's sexual history constructing them as sluts/etc. while men's sexual history makes them into studs and such. The joke is such that it puts the man in the dominant position, the woman subordinated...which, in a culture dominated by and that idealizes hegemonic masculinity, is problematic.
It's not about militant feminism or whatever. It's about recognizing the historical ranking and positioning of men and women, and how particular jokes and such serve to reinforce that.
I mean, honestly, I'm not really a fan of Belinda Stronach, but I don't feel like people not being a fan of her is justification for shit-talking her. Justifying talking shit on an I like/I don't like basis is a slippery slope.
Belinda -
The Conservative "bone" is Peter McKay's erect penis.
Cheers,
Ralph
The joke is funny, yes...you'd expect that rebuttal line at a roast of someone. The problem is the person is a political figure, an elected government offical.
You'd expect this kind of humor at the Pamela Anderson roast from the likes of Tommy Lee, but my opinion is elected government officials have no place in the "juvenile humor" arena, no matter if its funny and/or done at a roast. Klein should be held to a higher standard....too bad he doesn't respect his position enough to act appropriately.
On a rough BoA connection between the roast story and big hockey news, Klein's joke came at a roast to raise money for a society that deals with homeless people.
So now you guys aren't the only ones who are in trouble for making a politically incorrect joke at somebody's expense for the greater benefit of charity.
i am a girl. i think it's hillarious. remember when the MLA from Drayton Valley/Canmore (Tony Abott) said she whored herself for power and all the folks who jumped all over him? well who, besides me, even remembers that now? no one. because stronach is crazy. i mean, the woman was tie domi's mistress. need we say anymore?
ferrence... meh. let his wife deal with him. if she's offended, i'm sure she will let him know.
hockey... the only condolence i have right now is, hey, the (f)lames suck worse.
this is long. no one will read it. whatever.
~kat
Kat, this is nothing against your comment. But there is a possibility if you... You know... Capitalise the first letter of each sentence.
The issue here is not whether Sexism Is Bad (not that anyone here has successfully made an argument that the comment was sexist, except insofar as it involves some of us having penises and some not). The issue is whether political correctness can be explicitly waived in a particular environment for any reason whatsoever. Even given that PC rules are intelligible, defensible, and desirable as universal norms of decency, we have lots of environments where other such rules are waived for the purposes of entertainment, competition, or catharsis. Raffi Torres, for instance, is not allowed to come up to you on the street and knock you down so hard that you leave a slugtrail of blood. In a hockey game he has a legal and moral license to do it.
The analogy to a roast is precise and complete, but it's understandable if some people don't get that, because the tradition fell into desuetude for a long time. In fairness to the Stalinoids here, its rebounding popularity can in fact be taken as a general social protest against PC. But taking specific umbrage against one participant who had every right to feel protected under the rules of the game is not proper. Even if it's Ralph.
N.B.: the Women In My Family Approve This Message.™
My favourite part of this post is the Psycho Sawyer reference; although I suspect that some of our younger readers may have confused that "Francis" with Eric.
I loved the Klein joke, but I think people are forgetting one thing...a hockey player actually gave an original answer to a reports dumb question! Mind you it would've been better (but not printed) if he had've said "your mother" or "the girl I met last night" but it was still damn funny and a refreshing change from..umm last time I scored a goal?
slugtrail of blood
The evocations of texture, viscosity, colour, shape and length make this phrase more than worthy enough to enter the Glossary!
Damn that kid can write.
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I can confirm this quote. I heard the interview on Clagary radio (960am) last night at about 5:00pm while sitting through a snow induced, extra-long commute.
uh yup .. Clagary .. that's what I said
And yes Matt, your take on the delivery of the line is pretty close.
The best touch is the supposedly professional "satirist" who expressed horror at hearing, um, a roast joke at a roast. I'd suggest that the gentleman look for a new career cleaning toilets, but he'd probably topple over in shock the first time he found some shit in one.
For professional reasons I can only describe myself as "disappointed" in the Herald for running such a painfully contrived and culturally ignorant story. Its very appearance is an accidental snapshot of the modern newsroom.
Agreed.
The joke is funny, but definitely not for mass consumption at this point in a delicate time.
# posted by 
: November 09, 2006 11:25 am
: November 09, 2006 11:25 am Painfully contrived, indeed. The kicker, I suppose, is that Professional satirist Bob Robertson ("...I don't want to offend too many people") was the guy who referenced the "dog" comment, which lame as it might be, is an actual insult. Klein simply referenced the well-known existence of her old boyfriend. "She had sex with Peter Mackay" is not an insult, is it?
"Is it true that they give donkey rides to the bottom?" -- now THAT'S an insult.
doesn't know the difference between a sexist joke and a sex joke.
Thanks to the militant feminist coloring of contemporary "Political Correctness" the two are indeed one and the same in many people's minds these days.
"She had sex with Peter Mackay" is not an insult, is it?
Ah...too easy.
The women in my family could care less about Stronach, but they're fairly offended at the attitude displayed by the current conservative crop (or at least the attitude the media is displaying they display...which makes a difference), and they're hardly militant.
I mean c'mon...a century of voting...I'm sure women feel they're taken seriously in Canadian politics. I mean, really, African Americans are over the whole slave thing, right?
# posted by : November 09, 2006 1:32 pm
: November 09, 2006 1:32 pm Oh Ralph, you will be missed. That was an awesome joke. Ralph is King!!!
And for all those people who are so sensitive these days, chill out.
If taking women seriously requires taking Belinda Stronach seriously as an individual, women are in big trouble. Fortunately most people of both sexes are perfectly capable of recognizing that as a non sequitur. And either way a roast is still a roast.
I think you should stick to doing hockey posts.
Your analysis on what is or is not a sexist joke isn't one of your best work. And I gave leeway given the fact you're a flames fan.
# posted by : November 09, 2006 2:31 pm
: November 09, 2006 2:31 pm Sex joke at the expense of a woman = sexist joke. Got it!
P.S. Joe Ceci's comment about mixed company really gives him away, doesn't it...
Your analysis on what is or is not a sexist joke isn't one of your best work. And I gave leeway given the fact you're a flames fan.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how this comment is sexist. How is a negative remark directed towards one particular woman interpreted as a smear on all women?
I just don't get it.
"I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how this comment is sexist. How is a negative remark directed towards one particular woman interpreted as a smear on all women?"
Dead on. Stronach is the type of woman who makes me ashamed to be female. And they are everywhere in the media these days. Makes me feel better to poke fun at them, anyways.
"Your analysis on what is or is not a sexist joke isn't one of your best work. And I gave leeway given the fact you're a flames fan."
When did Stronach get chosen to be a proxy for all women? It was a joke about her and her ex and a pretty funny one at that.
So it depends on the type of woman a person is before it's judged as an inappropriate comment?
Having had experience working in the area of domestic violence and having worked with offenders who beat women, comments like this is the gateway to dehumanizing women which in turns makes it okay to commit acts of violence in them. As a public figure, he should know better.
But then, he's had the blessing of standing on Oil and shouting how much he's done for the province while the roads are cracking, the environment's going to hell and the school system is wrought with problems.
yeah, way to go Ralph.
# posted by : November 09, 2006 3:22 pm
: November 09, 2006 3:22 pm You know what grace, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and the 'Nucks are sucking some serious cigar these days.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how this comment is sexist. How is a negative remark directed towards one particular woman interpreted as a smear on all women?
Because it's representative of what men have historically sat around and done. It's a man using another man's sexual conquests/whatever as something to garner him some cultural capital through comedy. It's the kind of comment that ends with guys slapping high fives and shit like that...'haha...MacKay sure did bang Stronach...hahaha'.
It also has to do with the cultural ideology of women's sexual history constructing them as sluts/etc. while men's sexual history makes them into studs and such. The joke is such that it puts the man in the dominant position, the woman subordinated...which, in a culture dominated by and that idealizes hegemonic masculinity, is problematic.
It's not about militant feminism or whatever. It's about recognizing the historical ranking and positioning of men and women, and how particular jokes and such serve to reinforce that.
I mean, honestly, I'm not really a fan of Belinda Stronach, but I don't feel like people not being a fan of her is justification for shit-talking her. Justifying talking shit on an I like/I don't like basis is a slippery slope.
# posted by : November 09, 2006 6:39 pm
: November 09, 2006 6:39 pm Belinda -
The Conservative "bone" is Peter McKay's erect penis.
Cheers,
Ralph
# posted by : November 09, 2006 8:39 pm
: November 09, 2006 8:39 pm The joke is funny, yes...you'd expect that rebuttal line at a roast of someone. The problem is the person is a political figure, an elected government offical.
You'd expect this kind of humor at the Pamela Anderson roast from the likes of Tommy Lee, but my opinion is elected government officials have no place in the "juvenile humor" arena, no matter if its funny and/or done at a roast. Klein should be held to a higher standard....too bad he doesn't respect his position enough to act appropriately.
On a rough BoA connection between the roast story and big hockey news, Klein's joke came at a roast to raise money for a society that deals with homeless people.
So now you guys aren't the only ones who are in trouble for making a politically incorrect joke at somebody's expense for the greater benefit of charity.
# posted by : November 09, 2006 9:04 pm
: November 09, 2006 9:04 pm i am a girl. i think it's hillarious. remember when the MLA from Drayton Valley/Canmore (Tony Abott) said she whored herself for power and all the folks who jumped all over him? well who, besides me, even remembers that now? no one. because stronach is crazy. i mean, the woman was tie domi's mistress. need we say anymore?
ferrence... meh. let his wife deal with him. if she's offended, i'm sure she will let him know.
hockey... the only condolence i have right now is, hey, the (f)lames suck worse.
this is long. no one will read it. whatever.
~kat
# posted by : November 09, 2006 11:22 pm
: November 09, 2006 11:22 pm Kat, this is nothing against your comment. But there is a possibility if you... You know... Capitalise the first letter of each sentence.
The issue here is not whether Sexism Is Bad (not that anyone here has successfully made an argument that the comment was sexist, except insofar as it involves some of us having penises and some not). The issue is whether political correctness can be explicitly waived in a particular environment for any reason whatsoever. Even given that PC rules are intelligible, defensible, and desirable as universal norms of decency, we have lots of environments where other such rules are waived for the purposes of entertainment, competition, or catharsis. Raffi Torres, for instance, is not allowed to come up to you on the street and knock you down so hard that you leave a slugtrail of blood. In a hockey game he has a legal and moral license to do it.
The analogy to a roast is precise and complete, but it's understandable if some people don't get that, because the tradition fell into desuetude for a long time. In fairness to the Stalinoids here, its rebounding popularity can in fact be taken as a general social protest against PC. But taking specific umbrage against one participant who had every right to feel protected under the rules of the game is not proper. Even if it's Ralph.
N.B.: the Women In My Family Approve This Message.™
My favourite part of this post is the Psycho Sawyer reference; although I suspect that some of our younger readers may have confused that "Francis" with Eric.
I loved the Klein joke, but I think people are forgetting one thing...a hockey player actually gave an original answer to a reports dumb question! Mind you it would've been better (but not printed) if he had've said "your mother" or "the girl I met last night" but it was still damn funny and a refreshing change from..umm last time I scored a goal?
# posted by : November 10, 2006 7:33 am
: November 10, 2006 7:33 am slugtrail of blood
The evocations of texture, viscosity, colour, shape and length make this phrase more than worthy enough to enter the Glossary!
Damn that kid can write.
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